Help me understand the new HE & HESH rounds.

[Maj.Hans]

I'm familiar with standard Sabot rounds, standard HEAT rounds, the MPAT, and Cannister. I'm also familiar with HE rounds, but they aren't typically something I think of

However, I've noticed a few oddities.

First, while many countries were out developing anti-crunchy rounds like Cannister and HE, the UK apparently felt satisfied with HESH. Are these rounds still effective against troops, or are they simply used as a substitute like the M830/DM12 HEAT-MP round was?

Second, I noticed that many of the HE/Frag rounds have surprisingly good penetration values. Is this just a side effect of the velocity of the round, or an intentional design? I can understand why the Slsgr.95 with it's delay fuse would have an AP capability, but why the OF rounds on Soviet tanks? Hell the HE/Frag round on the T-62 is more effective than the Sabot rounds!

And finally, although it's not modeled, I noticed that the DM-11 HE round has a spike tip on it, almost exactly like the DM12/M830 HEAT rounds. Is that round actually a smaller diameter HEAT round with a large HE round wrapped around it or something?

[Gibsonm]

HESH has an excellent APERS capability.

The round can be troublesome if it doesn't hit a resonable surface to denotate (firing into a swamp is not ideal, for example).

However if you hit a rock, concrete and reasonable firm soil (doesn't need to be frozen tundra) you will get a very good blast result and good frag.

Its even better against bunkers, buildings, etc. as the "spalling" effect still happens, whereas the HEAT "jet" can be less effective against these surfaces (both in terms of penetration and internal terminal effects).

[Grenny]

Well, the DM-11 Story is an odd thing.

It's just a rumor I heared but, with the tip on, it seem to be more stable. It will reduce the rounds range, but the flight path has less deviation==>better accuracy esp. in air-burst mode.

Anyway, I don't know enough abour aerodynamics, to put a value on that.

HEAT vs. building is very effective in therms of penetration...but it only kill the enemy inside the room if it directly hits him :-)...true for f.e. the PzFst

120mm HEAT..or MZ has better effect. 1st the DM-12 has a significant shrapnel potential (hence her designation as multy-purpose round). 2nd the shrapnel/"wall-spall" still has the forward speed-vector of the impact-velocity.

A square-meter of brick comming you way at 300 m/s will ruin your day 8-)

[Maj.Hans]

OK, so basically HESH is something I should use both against light armor and troops, just make sure to hit some kind of a dense object with it if possible.

I knew that the M830/DM12 had a frag or spall sleeve added to it, but I guess some users decided they also wanted a dedicated HE/Frag round.

Now, if the spike on DM11 is just an aerodynamic thing, I still don't get why they didn't just shape it like a normal shell?

[Gibsonm]

OK, so basically HESH is something I should use both against light armor and troops, just make sure to hit some kind of a dense object with it if possible.

Yes. Assuming your coax can't deal with it.

[Maj.Hans]

It's usually a situational thing with me. Usually, if I'm using the main gun against troops, they're either in a structure or about to whack me with an anti-tank weapon.

Given how plentiful coax ammunition is on most of the MBTs, I don't mind having to really blast away from long range in order to eliminate an infantry squad with it. I can't ever remember actually running out of coax ammo...Maybe ONCE in the Leopard2A4 in the original SB.

In the original SB the coax ammo on the M1 was basically unlimited. I think it was something like 12,000 rounds all linked together, so you'd jam the gun or get killed before you ran out.

One more question for you:

What exactly am I supposed to be using the DM33 PELE rounds for? They seem to be surprisingly ineffective against APCs compared to HEAT rounds?

[Ssnake]

We have to differentiate between what Steel Beasts does, what it SHOULD to, and what happens in reality. The HE/fragmentation model is supposed to undergo a major revision in the coming weeks.

PELE comes in different calibers and flavors, which we managed to mangle all into one single type of round. The major benefit of the PELE technology is that the projectiles are completely inert, so there's no UXO issue with them. Second, you can relaborate old ammunition that would otherwise have to be disposed of (which at least in Germany means a manufacturing process (with lots of environmental standards to be observed) that may actually be more expensive than to produce the rounds in the first place).

Anyway, PELE rounds are bored out HEAT-MP or APFSDS rounds which get then filled with polyethylene or aluminium. The steel/PE combination has less penetration depth but produces more fragments, the tungsten/aluminium penetrates deeper but produces fewer fragments.

The working principle is that the soft filler material gets compressed while the projectile strikes the armor plate and is still confined in the penetration channel by the surrounding armor material. Once that the projectile reaches the rear end of the plate, the compressed filler material expands again and thereby bursts the surrounding projectile material. This creates an "Enhanced Lateral Effect" (the ELE part of the Penetrator).

As far as SB Pro is concerned, we may need to refine the underlying model for the PELE rounds to make them more effective.

[Tjay]

Second, you can relaborate old ammunition that would otherwise have to be disposed of (which at least in Germany means a manufacturing process (with lots of environmental standards to be observed) that may actually be more expensive than to produce the rounds in the first place)..

Yep, if legislation continues to be introduced that means manufacturers are responsible of getting rid of products they have made when the customer has finished with them, industry is likely to grind to a complete halt.

[Ssnake]

People will still need the goods for their living. Yeah, it would be a major transformation of the way how we're doing business, but I'm optimistic enough to assume that while some companies will fail, others will cope and flourish.People will find a way to deal with such legislation, one way or another.

[Tjay]

People will still need the goods for their living. Yeah, it would be a major transformation of the way how we're doing business, but I'm optimistic enough to assume that while some companies will fail, others will cope and flourish.People will find a way to deal with such legislation, one way or another.

I'm sure you are right. Actually I'm not - because I am a born pessimist. So I look forward to being pleasantly surprised. But at the moment it's not clear how the disposal process will be funded. But at a time when everyohe is looking for growth, adding 20% to the cost of cars fridges and aircraft etc, might not be a good idea.