dejawolf Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Why is this not in there yet?! WHY!? :eek2:Nils doesn't like WW2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjay Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Disable the map updates as well, that is always fun. No it's not! It's sheer sadism. And disabling map updates is only slightly less cruel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nils doesn't like WW2."Nothing happened between 1939 and 1945....All of the German Population went to the beach.""For six years?""Ja, it was very long national holiday!" :biggrin::biggrin: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Killjoy Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nils doesn't like WW2. Ok, wish thread is being spammed now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 Why is this not in there yet?! WHY!? :eek2:If we wanted to go WW2, we'd better implement a dozen playable vehicles from that era. We'd also need to adjust the doctrinal behavior of a lot of the vehicles. We'd need different damage calculations for the terminal ballistic effects (no sabots during that time, and nearly no use of tungsten or uranium, just to point out three major elements).In addition to all this - and make no mistake, that alone would be a very substantial undertaking - I indeed have a problem with WW2 era games that separate the military elements from the political context because it would be ahistorical. And there's no fun at all about German Einsatzgruppen, Soviet mass rapings, or the firebombings of cities. You can use WW2 as a backdrop for entertainment only if you blend out these elements. Blending out these elements however will seriously distort the historic truth. I don't want to be a part of that, even if Hollywood and a large part of the rest of the world has little to no problems with it.Steel Beasts by and large is about hypothetical combat situations. It doesn't make a statement why the conflict started, what it is about. It's just a big toolbox with which you can set up your tactical vignettes. This is the sole justification to leave out the problem of political context, simply because it's undefined beyond what a scenario author writes down in the mission briefing.Another point is that Steel Beasts is primarily about training, and NOT entertainment (of course, it is what you make of it, to a large extent). I would rather concentrate the team's efforts on elements that help our customers to deliver better training to their soldiers rather than letting us get sidetracked with a WW2 project that will just attract the rivet counters. I have not the least inclination to lead discussions about how the qualities of different small arms weapons should be depicted better in Steel Beasts, nor about the quality of various cast steels or the finer details between a PzKW IV Ausf. H compared with a G version, and whether the transmission of Panther tanks should fail more often etc.I simply am not the least motivated by this, but experienced enough in this field of work to know what would happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Killjoy Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 If we wanted to go WW2, we'd better implement a dozen playable vehicles from that era. We'd also need to adjust the doctrinal behavior of a lot of the vehicles. We'd need different damage calculations for the terminal ballistic effects (no sabots during that time, and nearly no use of tungsten or uranium, just to point out three major elements).In addition to all this - and make no mistake, that alone would be a very substantial undertaking - I indeed have a problem with WW2 era games that separate the military elements from the political context because it would be ahistorical. And there's no fun at all about German Einsatzgruppen, Soviet mass rapings, or the firebombings of cities. You can use WW2 as a backdrop for entertainment only if you blend out these elements. Blending out these elements however will seriously distort the historic truth. I don't want to be a part of that, even if Hollywood and a large part of the rest of the world has little to no problems with it.Steel Beasts by and large is about hypothetical combat situations. It doesn't make a statement why the conflict started, what it is about. It's just a big toolbox with which you can set up your tactical vignettes. This is the sole justification to leave out the problem of political context, simply because it's undefined beyond what a scenario author writes down in the mission briefing.Another point is that Steel Beasts is primarily about training, and NOT entertainment (of course, it is what you make of it, to a large extent). I would rather concentrate the team's efforts on elements that help our customers to deliver better training to their soldiers rather than letting us get sidetracked with a WW2 project that will just attract the rivet counters. I have not the least inclination to lead discussions about how the qualities of different small arms weapons should be depicted better in Steel Beasts, nor about the quality of various cast steels or the finer details between a PzKW IV Ausf. H compared with a G version, and whether the transmission of Panther tanks should fail more often etc.I simply am not the least motivated by this, but experienced enough in this field of work to know what would happen.I didn't mean to involve any of the politics, I just like the Vehicles....and, having done some programming myself, modelling and representing all the gunnery systems, engine, transmission etc would be a pain on top of everything else you would have to do for Modern Day AFVs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 10, 2012 Members Share Posted December 10, 2012 I didn't mean to involve any of the politics, I just like the Vehicles.Sure, but that's quite the point for me. Nobody wants the unpalatable politics involved, but at least I cannot ignore for which reasons and with which methods this war was fought. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted December 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) At some point we, the community, must mentally disconnect politics with tanks. Tanks are vehicles, not people. Does it mean you are a dirty baby killing communist if you play in a T-72 tank in SB? No. What about a filthy American pig-dog capitalist if you play in an M1? No. People can and will attach their own political connotations wherever they want, but what it comes down to in the end is a tank battle. Certainly a level of maturity in the community is required for everything, but that goes without saying. Speaking of which, I think I have already seen a Kursk scenario featuring Leopards and T-72s. Same battle, just modern vehicles, so really all the politics is just pointless to me, people are going to do what they want to do regardless. There is nothing stopping someone from making WW2 battles with all the unsavory parties with the vehicles we currently have available (Leo 1s for Shermans, Leo 2s for Panthers, T-72s for T-34s). And also, we already have the rivet counters around here anyway. Still, personally speaking, I am not for a "WW2 Steel Beasts" myself, no. However, I do love ALL TANKS throughout history (well most of them anyway). There are plenty of tanks from all sides and time periods that should have respect for what they were, good solid designs and cornerstones of modern battle tanks. I don't care who made the tank, if you love tanks in general then there are certain tanks in history that are classics (M4 Sherman, T-34, JS-1 & 2, Pz IV, Panther, Tiger, Centurion, Chieftan, M47, M48, M60, T-54/55, T-62). I think the way to do it with class would be to just slowly go backwards into history one tank at a time, until you end up with a tool box of vehicles which can be matched up as seen fit by the scenario designer. Nothing political, no stock WW2 battles, just some of history's best tanks (as I said, I could care less about WW2). Anyway, just my two pesos. I am not trying to shovel turds onto open flames, just trying to bring a level of maturity to how we should be looking at historical tanks as a community. Edited December 10, 2012 by Volcano 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanPatrick Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I think politics are important when it comes to wars...but meaningless in battle.I bet even the staunchest Communist wasn't thinking about Lenin or Stalin in the trenches of WWII. I imagine for the most part it's you, your buddies and your God in that place. And sometimes maybe it's just you...But what do I know...I never went to war. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankHunter Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I agree with V about the politics aspect of it. For example I play CMSF, and tend to make missions where there are Syrian forces vs. Insurgent forces. Does it mean that I am a secret Ba'athist or Islamist? No it doesn't. The same is true of playing the German side in WW2 games. It has more to do with an interesting set of tactical problems that are presented, as opposed to support for an ideology. The other things are not of concern to the tactical problems presented. You still have to seize so and so town, or hold the ridge over there. What happens before or afterward isn't the issue. Those things are beyond the scope of the simulation and would take away from the meat of it, which is the tactical problem presented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I bet even the staunchest Communist wasn't thinking about Lenin or Stalin in the trenches of WWII.I suspect though he may well have been interested in the MGs set up in depth by the NKVD to ensure his "enthusiasm".with similar incentives in place on the other side of the hill. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I also agree with volcanoI consider my self a military vehicle enthusiast.I think one can differentiate between. appreciating the engineering aspectOf the machines And the politics of the people sending them in to conflict. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I have not the least inclination to lead discussions about how the qualities of different small arms weapons should be depicted better in Steel Beasts, nor about the quality of various cast steels or the finer details between a PzKW IV Ausf. H compared with a G version, and whether the transmission of Panther tanks should fail more often etc.I simply am not the least motivated by this, but experienced enough in this field of work to know what would happen. True that. But plenty of rivet counters - like myself - exist for modern era armors too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 11, 2012 Members Share Posted December 11, 2012 plenty of rivet counters - like myself - exist for modern era armors too. That I can handle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 11, 2012 Members Share Posted December 11, 2012 I think one can differentiate between. appreciating the engineering aspect Of the machines And the politics of the people sending them in to conflict.Sure, but should one SEPARATE them in game design?If you do, that's an eminently political decision, so NOT mention what's going on behind the front, to NOT mention that every village that you conquer for the Germans will soon be raided by the SS to deport the Jews and other suspect Untermenschen. Every victory that you as a player achieves would in real life have meant a monstrous disaster for the population, and another victory for evil.I hate doing the chest pounding that's often to be found among the German leftist that because we were the worst genocidal psychopaths of history, we also learned the lessons best (which then entitles us to tell others how they should feel about any other conflict, past and present). But there is a grain of truth in it that such a separation of military action and the very purpose for which it took place would be an active act of distorting the truth.It might have held some water in a period where the apologists of the Wehrmacht upheld the distinction between "clean Wehrmacht" and "dirty SS" and that the people in Germany didn't know what was really going on. I think that the historians are well beyond that point. While people didn't know the details, saying that they had no clue whatsoever can only be explained with false testimony.I would not want to promote the illusion that the Wehrmacht wasn't involved in Genocide and war crimes. And that is why it is so difficult - maybe impossible even, at least for me - to make a good game of all this. Games should be fun. That part of history is no fun at all unless you reduce the parties to mere cartoons, like the Nazis in the Indiana Jones movies. (As a side note, after finishing Schindler's List, Spielberg stated that he could never have cartoon Nazis in his movies again).The political context devalues all the military achievements, the heroism that occurred, on both the German and Soviet side. Partisan warfare in the Balkans was atrocious. The least unpalatable, but arguably also the least important military operations were in North Africa, and even here the veterans of Tobruk may have a quite different view how honorable this war was fought.The fact that we're already debating the political history of WW2 based on the mere statement of mine why there is no Panther in SB Pro should be indicator enough to let everybody see what might happen if there really was a WW2 version of Steel Beasts. So, let me just say in conclusion that I see plenty of space in the Post-WW2 era that hasn't be covered by computer and board games nearly as well as has been WW2, and as long as we can do something to improve today's training of our soldiers for tomorrow's conflicts (assuming that "we" are the good guys), I'd rather direct eSim's efforts into these fields than to work on the past. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejawolf Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Sure, but should one SEPARATE them in game design?you don't see your cognitive dissonance? Tanks are DESIGNED to commit atrocities. their task is to kill as many people as possible. thousands of children has been left fatherless, and end up slowly starving to death because of atrocities committed by people driving tanks. the T-62 killed thousands of villagers in afghanistan during the 80s, and the tank contributed to killing hundreds of jews during the yom-kippur war. is there any difference in killing a jew in a gas chamber, or with a tank gun? the syrians basically had the same goal as the Nazis, Genocide... their goal was "push israel into the sea". most people here avoid politicizing tanks, they sit down, play a game at friday night and have fun. some people want to experience the historical battles, maybe to try and imagine the horrors that the soldiers had to go through. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Killjoy Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 It's a game, guys. Like was said before, just because I play the part of an Iraqi tank commander doesn't mean I'm a Ba'athist extremist, nor does it mean if I command a WW2 style Schwere Panzerabteilung that I'm a Nazi. Big armoured shooty things rolling around and shooting other big armoured shooty things in gratuitous amounts. Leave the politics out. It ruins everything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanPatrick Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I agree with the assertion that for most casual players, SB is pure entertainment and therefore politics usually don't matter. That's the point of it, really. So we can put ourselves in situations we might never have otherwise been a part of, for whatever reason. And when it's just a few friends, who cares?But I also hear Ssnake's point. It's easy to forget that not everyone sees things from the same perspective. And as a multinational company (with multinational customers) you just can't afford to do that. There used to be a game on the market that allowed a player to re-enact the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. As an American, I think that's distasteful. (Even if it was their 'right', and despite what the company claimed about their reason behind publishing it.)So maybe it's better that these types of scenarios are left to the community to develop, limited as they may be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted December 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) With all due respect, I am merely pointing out the other side of the coin here: I think no one here will deny that Cold War era armor is equally as "cool" and fascinating as WW2 classic tanks, and the former is hardly represented at all in any simulations. So that is a good thing, and it will keep the tank connoisseurs happy in that regard and there is still plenty of terrain to cover there. :smile: The fact that we're already debating the political history of WW2 based on the mere statement of mine why there is no Panther in SB Pro should be indicator enough to let everybody see what might happen if there really was a WW2 version of Steel Beasts. Well, nobody was debating political history here. I think a comment was made to have historical tanks from the WW2 era in SB, and then your posts happened which turned the issue political. Sure, but should one SEPARATE them in game design?If you do, that's an eminently political decision, so NOT mention what's going on behind the front, to NOT mention that every village that you conquer for the Germans will soon be raided by the SS to deport the Jews and other suspect Untermenschen. Every victory that you as a player achieves would in real life have meant a monstrous disaster for the population, and another victory for evil. I hate to point it out, but choosing to avoid it is also a politically based decision. And even worse, what nice fertile and profitable ground regarding classic tanks is thrown right out the window in the process. But really, it is all quite black and white in my view. A scenario has tanks, lets say a T-72, and some PCs, lets say BMPs on the user controlled side. You have a circle on the map which is the objective. The objective is: take or hold the circle. Period. The briefing tells you what the objective is, what vehicles your side has and what vehicles the opposing force has. We really don't need to know that the scenario actually takes place in West Germany in 1985, and that upon taking the objective everyone in the town will be rounded up and shot by the commissars, or sent off to some slave labor camp in East Germany. Who cares, and we already have evil in Steel Beasts if that is the spectrum in which everything is viewed; this is why that aspect of the argument really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and is even becoming more stickier with insurgents. Anyway, that is all will say on the matter. I get sick in my stomach every time this topic is blown way out of proportion. Some things will never be seen eye to eye I guess, I only hope that the simulation of all manner of tanks does not suffer for it. :frown: Edited December 11, 2012 by Volcano clarfications/summarizing 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Alfa Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I want TANKS, doesn't matter when or how, just want TANKS/AFV's.:biggrin:I can see both sides to the issue. Having played some WWII tank sims I can understand the want/need/like for them to be played on the SB Pro PE engine, it would be cool. :shocked:However, I feel the greater need for the modern AFV's, we still have plenty that are not in the sim. If starting with WWII AFV's would push back or delay the introduction of more modern types I would say lets wait till we have all the modern steel first.If they can be made and placed into the Sim having no effect on the overall development of modern AFV's then ok.There are already plenty of WWII sims out there now, adding SB to the list is not going to change the world.I really do understand the want of the WWII AFV's, I started out playing Panzer Elite way back when, and enjoyed it. To me this Sim or any Sim for that matter, has never been about WHY, but HOW. We live in a political world that most of us can't escape in our daily lives, it's everywhere.:frown:Playing SB, is my way of removing myself from that burden, to have some fun with friends. Sure there is drama here in SB land, but I think it's mild compared to the everyday issues that wear us down in our non-SB lives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 My Response to Ssnake's argument:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSGQPzS0p5E:biggrin: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Killjoy Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 My Response to Ssnake's argument:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSGQPzS0p5E :biggrin: On a Futurama binge I see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 On a Futurama binge I see. Glad you didn't suggest a "Futurama Bender". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Killjoy Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Glad you didn't suggest a "Futurama Bender". I see what you did there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I see what you did there. #One was going to write a post lording the intellectual contend and high level of intellect shown by the contributors to this thread Then hedge posted.LoL 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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