Bizarre Shots Through Woods

[ChanceBS]

Could some explain how these shots were possible. Charlie Company lost 4 tanks from enemy fire through 850+ meters of forest... Beta version. Visibility was at 2000 meters. One Victim was not stationary at the time. This was during Head to Head play and 4 human players were actively trying to aquire a visual on the red tanks. No human or AI crew were able to spot Red tanks.

Red Tanks were human controlled.

It just seems Bizarre that a KE round could fly through that much forest without a tree strike or have the ability to even aquire Line of Sight. A HE round would not have travelled 5 meters into a forest without a tree strike.

Now I understand that a KE round will pass through a tree like butter, but how many tree strikes does it take to degrade penetration and trajectory?

But even with a reasonable explantion of degraded Penetration and/or trajectory, I just dont buy into that the Red Tank could "see" a target through hundreds of meters of woods anyway.

This is what it looked like from the gunner.

Another example.

And from the Victim gunner's view.

[Tacbat]

Could some explain how these shots were possible.

Well, I can't speak to the second shot, but I'm pretty sure I know who the gunner was in the first engagement.

If you look at the picture below, which was taken from the gunner's position inside the woods, you'll be able to just make out a pair of road wheels. (Zoomed in using the "N" key) Given that the range was very close (under 1000m) lead wasn't required.

This was during Head to Head play and 4 human players were actively trying to aquire a visual on the red tanks. No human or AI crew were able to spot Red tanks.

In the first engagement, the turret was pointing away from the gunner, so that's probably why the Red tank remained undetected. As well, since just the road wheels were visible and the rest of the tank was obscured by the trees, the TC/Gunner wouldn't have had an LOS back to the Red tank.

Sometimes it just comes down to "player ability". (inside joke)

Pretty much the same story for the second engagement. In the AAR you can see the road wheels and part of the hull through a gap in the trees...

[ChanceBS]

Nice Pics Tacbat and thanks for the response. I agree the victim is looking the wrong way but there were 7 human players in the area searching for the "red tanks". The Pics I have shown only represent 2 of the 4 kills that occurred. And not including the shots red fired that missed which are not recorded in the AAR. Of course we knew we were under fire and from where, as the red tanks were on the map. However we could not get a visual. The pick from the victim shows why.

I am exploring the theory that the AI is not seeing trees and or bushes as I believe this gives evidence to said theory. I am told others have experienced this from the AI also. Granted we did not have Thermals and niether did red so I am told. To pick up that tank will through about a quater mile of forest is amazing to me. Question is did a Human player spot it or the AI?

[Tacbat]

The Pics I have shown only represent 2 of the 4 kills that occurred.

Yeah, I went through the AAR and found what I think you saw at 40:37 and 40:44. Those were two of about four "Spec Fire" shots that I took. I knew we didn't have any FR vehicles to my front, so when I saw movement it had to be EN. It's kinda hard for me to describe, but I remember seeing a small part of something moving, so I touched off a few shots and was fortunate to have hit something. I'll have to run Fraps next time to better show you what I mean. Admittedly they were pretty much blind shots, fired at "something" sort of "over there". I could tell it was moving, that's why I saw it, but I couldn't tell you at the time what it was. Just a dark blob moving through the trees. If you look in the AAR using the thermal view, you can see what I mean a bit better.

My AI TC was pretty much along for the ride on that mission and I think the AI doesn't readily pick up on subtle movements of EN vehicles. I'm not sure if the AI would have been better if we had the TIS. In the non-Beta version the AI TC is better at spotting targets, but not so much in the woods. Fighting in the woods is a bit of a double edged sword I'd say, but the defender can use them to his advantage using some specific tactics.

I think that the AI sees through bushes and grass, but not trees???

[Ssnake]

I am exploring the theory that the AI is not seeing trees and or bushes as I believe this gives evidence to said theory.

It doesn't. Computers of course don't see trees the same way as we do. There just is a check whether LOS to any part of the tank exists. If it exists it is a matter of random calculation (=dice roll) whether the crew will actually notice the target or not. If it does, the friend/foe identification is immediate and perfect, and therefore a computer crew will immediately open fire.

I agree that this is problematic to the extent that in real life nobody would attempt such a shot. On the other hand we must simplify target recognition and identification procedures because they are done by all units all the time so efficiency is absolutely essential here for a real-time application. A consequence is that there are cases where computer units will fire through forests as if there was no visual obstacle.

We accept that this is not optimal, and if there is a chance to improve things, we will. But there is no immediate remedy in sight, the problem will stay with us for a while.

[fidelthefallguy]

I could tell it was moving, that's why I saw it, but I couldn't tell you at the time what it was. Just a dark blob moving through the trees. If you look in the AAR using the thermal view, you can see what I mean a bit better.

did you have TIS on that mission Tacbat?

[Tacbat]

did you have TIS on that mission Tacbat?

Unfortunately not. You can verify this by loading the scenario we played and going on the red side to check. I just mentioned it because the thermal view is available in the AAR. We also didn't have smoke grenades, which would have been helpful.

[ChanceBS]

Thanks for the explanation Ssnake. I have my reasonable explanation and better understanding of these forest shots.

[Sean]

Its really tough to judge forest shots from the AAR, because what really matters here is the shooters sight image in the few seconds leading up to the shot. Its common to see one pixel of movement in the gunsight, manually enter a range and blast away (if you know no friendlies are there). The human eye is very good at spotting movement, the AI is not quite as good.