OPERATION VARIABLE III

[Mousehold]

Not sure who told you that. SB simulates night battles just fine, as long as you understand why things behave a certain way at night.

That would be the Ssnake itself, though I see the thread is three years old. Perhaps he feels differently about things now and would be happy to offer an updated opinion. http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=14284

Darkness works best for transition periods, but not in the middle of the night. You may want to shift your scenario start time to early morning or late afternoon instead. Also, check if you have activated the NVG option.

We're still not where I want to be in the end with night and night vision equipment - but the option to activate NVGs for vehicles (and, correspondingly, higher travel speeds under low light conditions) will be available in the next PE version.

I'm still not convinced that, from a constructive/tactical simulation point of view our simulation results are of the fidelity that we want to achieve. But NVGs are a step in the right direction.

[Gibsonm]

I believe the visibility in all missions was set to a meager 2000m in all 6 missions. Why was it set so short?

My guess would be a simple oversight, given all the other things he had to do per scenario.

[Mousehold]

My guess would be a simple oversight, given all the other things he had to do per scenario.

It wasn't an oversight, because I asked and that's what he told me. (And also the default is 4000m, I believe.) It's not a complaint, mind, just a question. I want to know if there's some performance reason behind it, if it was supposed to be winter fog, or whatever.

[Toyguy]

I had very little trouble with no map updates this time, so that wouldn't bother me again. Same for night time missions. One interesting possibility might be the option for COs to buy "no map updates" or night missions, maybe with a limit of once per campaign. That could make for some surprises come game time.

I can't speak for the COs, but the side missions felt more like distractions to me. I'm not sure how that would be improved, so maybe it's just me.

Other than that, I enjoyed it and it continues to be as much fun as the other Op Variables were. Great job Tacbat!

[Gibsonm]

I think the impact of "Map updates" can also vary depending on your background.

If someone is used to marking a map with a greasy pencil and scribbling down grids, etc. then it probably isn't a big deal.

If people are used to the electronic battlefield management systems then I could see how not having that instant by instant update and situational awareness might cause "discomfort".

So the impact probably varied with people's experience / background (not saying one is better than the other! ).

[Tacbat]

I believe the visibility in all missions was set to a meager 2000m in all 6 missions. Why was it set so short?

To give the better equipment an edge over the poorer equipment.

[Gibsonm]

The only "negative" AAR point I can think of applies "globally" to all such multi week campaigns.

If you are aware that a time shift is going to happen (e.g. Daylight Saving Time, starts or stops) can you please tell people beforehand?

Not everybody knows when your particular part of the world is setting its clocks forward or back.

[Mousehold]

I think the impact of "Map updates" can also vary depending on your background.

If someone is used to marking a map with a greasy pencil and scribbling down grids, etc. then it probably isn't a big deal.

If people are used to the electronic battlefield management systems then I could see how not having that instant by instant update and situational awareness might cause "discomfort".

So the impact probably varied with people's experience / background (not saying one is better than the other! ).

My misery with no map updates was probably compounded by being task saturated as Blue XO+Bravo CO in a mountainous forest at night for two months. I was able to keep track of my units reasonably well, but overall it made the experience more work and less fun for me. And fighting in a forest for 5 TGIFs in a row wasn't that great either, so there are several things all compounding the issue for me.

I believe it was Tacbat that told me they are working on adding some intermediate map update options, and I'll very much look forward to those.

Somewhat related to map updates: I think it'd be more fun to disable the F8 view (where possible) than to disable map updates. Something tells me that could cause some problems though, such as when jumping to someone else's tank.

[Gibsonm]

Sorry, I don't want to appear to be taking issue with everything you say, but:

for two months.

Surely at worse case that was what three missions at 90mins each, so four and a hour hours or three weekend sessions.

[RogueSnake79]

Most of us are aware that these real time map updates are the supreme luxury of steal beasts. Even today, very few military's have anything like it.

I think the problem for us, when not using them is that we have to think more about the scale of each individuals responsibilities in such a scenario.

I think it is a lot to ask of an individual to navigate a company, in that type of terrain, and push it into a fight. It quickly becomes very frustrating. Only the most elite, veteran players can handle such a task, and steer it clear of a cluster fuck. And then only barely.

Having said that, it simply had not been done before in a large TGIF campaign that I can remember. Had each team had 3 or 4 more guys, I think we wouldn't be talking about this. Again that is the X factor for anyone who wishes to develop this type of scenario in my opinion. A nearly impossible task for anything made for more than a core group of friends.

But I still don't think its totally fair to complain about the difficulty of attacking through woods, with no map updates. You didn't have to do it. Red didn't do it. We deployed south of those woods for a reason. And I think this is something that Tacbat might have considered. That you would just have to wait till the return of map updates to make the assault through the woods.

I will tell you right now flat out that was Red for's plan. To avoid large scale combat in those woods, in the center of the map. The result was that we conceded them to you, which was my mistake.

[TankHunter]

The no map update missions were entertaining. It definitely induced chaos. I would love to play more like it. Though we did have far too many units for the no map update missions. For something like that, over a platoon to command gets to be too much it seems.

I would say that the map itself ended up being an impediment for both sides. It slowed movement and LOS was generally poor. Particularly around the wooded ridge.

More and smaller CCPs would be ideal.

[12Alfa]

The map and it's scale was not the issue. Playing it with available forces and the need to was. He who defends everything ,defends nothing.

Both side were not tasked to defend the whole map, if each side choose to then that their issue (I believe certain areas for points were) Defending a desired part in force and moving onto another section would have been wise, both in ground control and force preservation.

Just because it was there (map area), did not mean you had to control it for each mission.

Moving a large group of unit through woods without the desired amount of players for control is just bad tactics. We all know this from playing in woods over the years, so why do it in a campaign with few controlling players?. The desire to win vs good tactics?

I think the campaign went well, there was issues, but real life has issues also, adapt and over come them, this is a trait of a good commander whether in a single unit or controlling large amounts of units.

Map updates, well, real life has no map updates, we are just going to get over it aren't we?

Even the Blue Force Tracker is not perfect now is it, we found this out in the desert a few times and had to revert on the good old map and map markings along with comms.

Train for the worst and you will benefit from the best......

[Brun]

My misery with no map updates was probably compounded by being task saturated as Blue XO+Bravo CO in a mountainous forest at night for two months. I was able to keep track of my units reasonably well, but overall it made the experience more work and less fun for me. And fighting in a forest for 5 TGIFs in a row wasn't that great either, so there are several things all compounding the issue for me.

Well part of being Co/Xo is to anticipate possible problems with terrain and and movement of units under your command and adjust. Either in the planning phase or durring the battle. At night, with no map updates, many units, and limited manpower this can become difficult. No quick fix for this only experience and working on what You find difficult. Co/Xo attitude should not be "more work and less fun." instead try.

1. " More work is more fun that is why i am Co/Xo.

2. " This was alot of work. How to avoid this in the future?

Alot of people took time out of their lives to show up and be commanded by You. They deserve better than,

"I'm never playing without map updates again until they update the way it works. Blargh!"

or

"Six missions felt too long to me. I think I was 'done' after about the fourth one."

Well the next time you feel "done" let your Co know about it so you can be replaced.

[Tacbat]

Were we going next?

I now have a very good idea where the next one will take place. Don't get too excited yet. We'll have to wait until the next update is released to take advantage of some of the new features. However, work is already underway on OPV4.

[Tacbat]

Interesting, so there was a reason for the different colors! :biggrin:

Yep, there was a method to my madness.

[Duke(911)]

Servus,

my 2cents:

In my opinion the big and difficult map was Ok.

Both sides have a lot of options for a point of main effort for the attack or defend.

It was a challenge to play with no map updates and additionally the night mission and for me not the problem.

I think everybody who was joining a mission had an expectation.

OPV is a H2H campagne, and I wanted to shoot.

We had an average size of 11 players per mission on every side.

And we had to handle more than 3 coys per mission, I think to much for a really H2H fun or experience.

Example:

In the first 3 missions, I had to handle 2 IFV plt + 1 tank plt + support and supply and I think the most of us too.

I was only jumping between the vehicles and Inf squads, F8 round view, view through the TIS, check the path and jump to the next vehicle or Inf squad. Sometimes I had the luck to recon enemy units and to shoot, but a lot of Murphys law too.

So in the first 3 missions I learned a lot about to handle a lot of units with no map updates and I like it, but it was not a H2H feeling.

In the last missions especially the last mission it was H2H feeling, to handle one plt and you can go in duellsituations, because you know your other plt vehicles are safe behind you. The pulse goes up and Joy and sorrow are close to each other.

In summary OPV III was fun for me because:

I went to every mission 03:45 AM and there was every mission a well prepared blue CO and XO.

I like challenges.

I like to play big games, it doesn`t matter COOP or H2H.

I like to play with you tank nuts.

And in the last mission I had my special moment:

Thank you for the Campagne Tacbat, thank you to dta delta and mouse for leading me, and thank you to the red side for pushing my adrenalin.

Tacbat if you take in the next campaign fewer vehicles, than we will have 20 players on each side, and a lot of guys will crying because they lost her 2 vehicles in the first 30minutes and they will crying for more vehicles.:biggrin:

I`m looking forward to OPV IV.

best regards

Duke

[RogueSnake79]

You cut the head off the snake, CO/A tank, with CO/A in it!

"DAMN IT! Where did that come from!"

[Mousehold]

Well part of being Co/Xo is to anticipate possible problems with terrain and and movement of units under your command and adjust. Either in the planning phase or durring the battle. At night, with no map updates, many units, and limited manpower this can become difficult. No quick fix for this only experience and working on what You find difficult. Co/Xo attitude should not be "more work and less fun." instead try.

1. " More work is more fun that is why i am Co/Xo.

2. " This was alot of work. How to avoid this in the future?

Alot of people took time out of their lives to show up and be commanded by You. They deserve better than,

"I'm never playing without map updates again until they update the way it works. Blargh!"

or

"Six missions felt too long to me. I think I was 'done' after about the fourth one."

Well the next time you feel "done" let your Co know about it so you can be replaced.

I'm sorry. I should probably try to sound less curmudgeonly about it. I really did have fun, but I'm grumpy because I'm really sick right now. Anyway, I just want to give frank feedback about what would make things more fun for me personally.

[Assassin 7]

You cut the head off the snake, CO/A tank, with CO/A in it!

"DAMN IT! Where did that come from!"

Thats my soldiers leading the way everyday LOL. :cvcys:

[Tacbat]

Tacbat if you take in the next campaign fewer vehicles, than we will have 20 players on each side, and a lot of guys will crying because they lost her 2 vehicles in the first 30minutes and they will crying for more vehicles.:biggrin:

Yes, exactly. Oh well, they'll just have to take care of their 2 vehicles, or they won't be playing the mission for very long.

[Tank guy]

My thought upon reading this was that if its your first campaign maybe you should resist the urge to take a XO/ Co Cdr job in the first place. There were plenty of people who were familiar with SB and its limitations and who had read and understood the campaign rules who could have acted as the Blue XO.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just saying know your limits. Everyone that has been around a while, knows about the no map updates, the limits of helos etc. Your not covering any new ground there. Many of these things are said to be addressed in the next update, so there is good news.

[TankHunter]

Any time when you have an important role in a competitive environment it is stressful. If you botch something, your team may lose because of it. It may be fun and exhilerating, but it is stressful too. That was the case with me doing recon during the red tide campaign. It was fun, it was a rush, but stressful too. So I can understand where mouse is coming from.

[Mousehold]

My thought upon reading this was that if its your first campaign maybe you should resist the urge to take a XO/ Co Cdr job in the first place. There were plenty of people who were familiar with SB and its limitations and who had read and understood the campaign rules who could have acted as the Blue XO.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just saying know your limits. Everyone that has been around a while, knows about the no map updates, the limits of helos etc. Your not covering any new ground there. Many of these things are said to be addressed in the next update, so there is good news.

I told Assassin that I was not qualified to be Blue XO, but that I would do it if he wanted me to. He did a great job easing me into the role and I never felt overwhelmed by it, just understaffed.

Please don't take my feedback to mean that I don't know what I'm doing, or use my newness to the community as an excuse to dismiss my feedback.

Also, I have no limits. :razz:

[Tacbat]

Another idea may be to run the campaign on alternating TGIF, so once every two weeks. This would give both sides more time for planning, and more time to build each scenario.

[Tango29]

Sorry to have missed the last scenario of OV3. Thanks and congratulations to all players who took part in this first rate campaign, and a special thanks to Tacbat who put it all together. Well Done! :luxhello:

I note that OV4 is now in the planning stages. If it's as good as the first three OV campaigns I am certain that we'll be in for an real challenge. :thumbup: