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Myopic Israeli Tank Crews


Hedgehog

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Wasn't the SS a 'western millitary'? Ok, the bad-eggs were the rear area 'security' types rather than combat troops... but didn't they fully understand how to commit brutality??

Confused?

True, but the Waffen SS would be more of an exception. Most in the west tend to hold human rights in high regard. As a result engaging in the logical extreme to a military solution of a war against an insurgency tends to be impossible.

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Ya, but that was back when people really didn't give a damn. It was all ok back then. They were either heathens in which case they needed to be forced to change their ways (or killed to prevent poisoning the minds of others) or they were violent savages and needed to be disposed of to keep order. And well, that kinda worked, didn't it? Today, you really cant pull something like that mainly because you would have opposition to it based on humanitarian reasons. Thus brutality isn't exactly an option in opposing an insurgency today.

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I recall watching a CNN footage during Baghdad invasion; as tanks were about to cross a bridge, lead tank noticed camera on top of the building and sprayed it with coawaxs(sp?). The camera fell down (probably with cameraman) and, as always, CNN hosts started over-reacting.....

" In another incident in Baghdad this morning, the office of another Arab satellite channel, Abu Dhabi Television, was hit apparently by small arms fire, as its crew filmed two American tanks positioned on a bridge over the Tigris river, the news editor of the station said.

The cameras were on the roof of the Abu Dhabi office, which is also in a villa, and is easy walking distance from the Al Jazeera house, said the editor, Nart Bouran.

The two cameras were taking live shots of the tanks on the bridge when one camera was hit and fell to the ground, Mr. Bouran said in a telephone interview from his office in Abu Dhabi.

"

http://www.axisofevildoers.org/cache/2003/2003.04.08_1952052263.html

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Fair enough, its ok when you are building a superpower, but it isn't on when the heathens want to do the same today ;)

Keep in mind that I am listed as 15/64 Cherokee based on the Dawes roles and am a card-carrying member of the Cherokee Nation. I'm probably actually 1/4 Cherokee, as they believe my grandmother fudged her ancestry to keep from being put on a reservation.

I agree with Tankhunter that as a military solution, the way the Native Americans were treated was effective. There has been no significant uprising within the Native American community since the end of the Indian Wars. That doesn't mean it was morally right, just that it was effective.

I think what can be said is that we either need to learn to live with conflict, or we have to force total and unconditional surrender on the opponent. Forcing that issue requires inflicting serious devastation on the opponent. It sometimes requires near total destruction of the opponent. It also often requires a level of totalitarianism within the winner that most Westerners would be quite uncomfortable with.

One thing we Westerners seem to have forgotten in recent years is that conflict among peoples is normal. It won't go away anytime soon. If we try to suppress completely those we are in conflict with, we are likely going to become like those we hate.

Instead of thanking God for the relative peace that the West has experienced in recent history, we tend to see that peace as normal and then condemn other nations that are in the midst of conflict. We should be watching them as learners, knowing that we will likely be enmeshed in war again ourselves within the next generation or two.

Which is better: insurgency, dictatorship, or periodic hot wars among nations? Take your pick. The third choice does allow for periods of peace, but don't expect them to last for generations as a time. Sorry, but long-term peace just isn't one of your options. I wish I could believe some optimistic people out there who say that modern society can put war behind it, but I cannot.

Getting back to the Native Americans: The ancient lifestyle of the Native American isn't all that it is sometimes made out to be. I'm not saying that it was good that the European settlers conquered them (us), but I would characterize it more as a clash between two warring cultures than a case of an aggressive, imperialistic culture invading and conquering a peaceful culture.

The really shareful thing about the treatment of the Native Americans is that a number of tribes westernized themselves and choose to live in harmony with the settlers. In most cases the settlers would have none of it, and US Army continued to drive those tribes out of areas that settlers wanted to claim. Other tribes agreed to live on reservations that were ill equipped to support them, with the US government promising to provide assistance. Those tribes have suffered for a long time because said assistance was rarely provided. When is was provided, corrupt tribal leaders often hoarded it and the rest of the tribe got little.

That, of course, is but further evidence that Native American tribes weren't the wonderful, pastoral groups of people that anthropologists sometimes make them out to have been. But that is another story.

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Getting back to the original post, here is a story that appeared today. http://uk.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUKMAC35776720080616

Like I figured from the puff of yellow in the original video, it was a flechette, or "beehive" round. While noting that there was a UAV overhead, this does not mean that the tank crews were privy to whatever imagery the UAV was providing. For that matter the UAV may not have even been looking at those particular individuals. UAVs do not equal 100 % Gods eye situational awareness of the entire battlefield, despite what some would like to believe.

My take is these guys were moving around in a ditch or ravine as shown in the original video of the aftermath of the attack, with cameras on their shoulders (or on tripods) which were probably mistaken for ATGMs by tank crews which were hurt pretty badly by ATGMs in the recent move into Lebanon, and the crews pulled the trigger. Sad but that is a risk one takes when your a non combatant and make the decision to loiter around military units engaged in actual operations.

Mog

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I would believe that this was a mistake normally but Israel has a terrible record of indiscriminate killing.

Remember in the Lebanon invasion they shelled a UN observation post that they knew existed and that the post was radioing them to cease fire for hours before being destroyed. They bomb UN relief convoys, kill innocent civilians in droves and then say that they were militants, they even destroy refugee camps on purpose and then drive bulldozers through the survivors!

I wish the US would intervene but they just sell them more weapons.

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Posted by GH_Lieste
Posted by Flanker15

I wish the US would intervene but they just sell them more weapons.

Well that is a kind of intervention.

Right on, GH. Flanker15, you've got a nice name, but not a nice attitude. You should be more careful what you say, research it, and think about what you say before you go out on a forum for the first time spewing opinions as if they were fact. And no saying "Look who's talking", either. I've encountered the type before, and I really don't like them. The first person with this attitude that I encountered online was in an online college course. Before the course was over, she had gone so far as to plagiarize a web site in support of her view.

Do your research, and present facts, not just heated opinions. Remember the Belgium atrocity stories of WWI? They were nothing more than fantasies, in some cases misrepresentations, and attempts to vindicate them before the Bryce Report (I hate Mr. Bryce for being a scandalmongering, lying jerk) were resounding failures.

Finally, let me say that if I had thought about what I had said without rushing, and taken more time, I would have had an easier start on this forum. Try to listen to what others have to say, before you shoot your mouth off.

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I would believe that this was a mistake normally but Israel has a terrible record of indiscriminate killing.

Remember in the Lebanon invasion they shelled a UN observation post that they knew existed and that the post was radioing them to cease fire for hours before being destroyed. They bomb UN relief convoys, kill innocent civilians in droves and then say that they were militants, they even destroy refugee camps on purpose and then drive bulldozers through the survivors!

I wish the US would intervene but they just sell them more weapons.

Yo Flanker15!

Like the name and the avatar. You fly the SU-27/33 in LOMAC? Maybe we can meet up some time and jam.

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I would believe that this was a mistake normally but Israel has a terrible record of indiscriminate killing.

Remember in the Lebanon invasion they shelled a UN observation post that they knew existed and that the post was radioing them to cease fire for hours before being destroyed. They bomb UN relief convoys, kill innocent civilians in droves and then say that they were militants, they even destroy refugee camps on purpose and then drive bulldozers through the survivors!

I wish the US would intervene but they just sell them more weapons.

Interesting assertions - some of which may well be true. I would like to see some of this substantiated in fact though.

Welcome to the forum.

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Ok I dug up the old news stories about the stuff I said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_United_Nations_personnel_during_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Sums up the UN outpost attack well with reference links at bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeting_of_civilian_areas_in_the_2006_Lebanon_War#cite_note-0

Same thing but for civilian casualties, relief convoys, use of cluster and incindenary munitions for both sides.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sc8098.doc.htm

The UN press release that condemns the bulldozing of Palestine homes and refugee camps.

I also found during my research that an IDF bulldozer killed a US protester during one of there incursions.

Israel has a right to defend itself from attack but it also has a responsibility to be more careful, if it truly wants to make peace it would use much more restraint.

Also I do think that the original incident was a mistake as a camera on tripod dose look like an ATGM and you can't read writing on a truck through a TIS.

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1st link: They admitted it was an error, and owned up to their responsibility. You can stop bellyaching now.

2nd link: That issue is a bit hazy. While the Field Manual of Land Warfare FM27-10 states that it isn't illegal under international law, the ST 100-3 Battle Book states otherwise. Bottom line: Don't jump to a conclusion when it hasn't been made clear yet.

3rd link: Typical pointless and impotent bellyaching from the UN (just my opinion), and cheers for that last IDF bulldozer. (Speaking of which, do you have a link to that?)

Finally,

Posted by Flanker15

Israel has a right to defend itself from attack but it also has a responsibility to be more careful, if it truly wants to make peace it would use much more restraint.

Yeah, but are Israel's enemies that careful? I seriously doubt it. Anywho, with our backing behind them, Israel has been somewhat reckless, but so are their enemies. That's the way they've fought all these years, and it won't stop because of the UN's complaints, I reckon. Good job putting up links to support your claim, but I just wish you had done so in your opening post.

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