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British Armoured Battle Group

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New structure for Armoured Regiment is a Sqn of 4 troops of 4 with the OC and 2IC in tanks making an 18 tank Sqn. Each Armoured Regiment will now only have 3 tank Sqns with a Command and Reconnaissance Sqn. HQ Sqn will now be QMs and MT etc.

Can you give a rough time frame for when this changed?

and which do you prefer the three or four tank troop?

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Its being implemented as part of 2020. Our Regt adopted it in January. Can't say when the QRH or RTR are. RTR are off to Afghan on H18 so will probably be in about 10/12 months.

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New structure for Armoured Regiment is a Sqn of 4 troops of 4 with the OC and 2IC in tanks making an 18 tank Sqn. Each Armoured Regiment will now only have 3 tank Sqns with a Command and Reconnaissance Sqn. HQ Sqn will now be QMs and MT etc.

Thanks CR2_Commander. That's a powerful squadron organisation of four manoeuvre troops with 4x tanks each. Will have to give that a go in SB.

I assume armoured infantry company organisation remains the same: three platoons of 4x Warrior plus 2x in HQ section?

Cheers

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As Irishhussar has already clarified there would be a prefix dependant on the Callsign Indicator (CI) on the daily changing BATCO sheet. There would also be suffixes too. So your 10, 20, 30, 40, 11, 21, 31, 41 etc etc, callsign could look something like this:

B10, B10A, B10B, B10C, B10D, B10E, B20, B20A, B20B, B20C, B20D, B20E etc etc. This would be the format for all types of callsigns in this style. However your command callsigns 0, 0A, 0B, 0C, 0D. would not have suffixes or prefixes.

Quote from wikipedia

British ArmyTactical voice communications ("combat net radio") use a system of call signs of the form letter-digit-digit. Within a standard infantry battalion these characters represent companies, platoons and sections respectively, so that 3 Section, 1 Platoon of B Company might be F13. In addition, a suffix following the initial call sign can denote a specific individual or grouping within the designated call sign, so F13C would be the Charlie fire team. Unused suffixes can be used for other call signs that do not fall into the standard call sign matrix, for example the unused 33A call sign is used to refer to the Company Sergeant Major.

Note that the letter part of the call sign is not the company's own letter (B vs F in the above example) - indeed, the letter designations are randomly assigned using BATCO sheets, and appear on CEIs (communication electronic instructions), and change along with the BATCO codes every 24 hours. This, together with frequency changes and voice procedure aimed at making every unit sound the same, introduces a degree of protection against simple traffic analysis and eavesdropping.

Not all radio users fit into the standard battalion model, but in order to continue the obfuscation they will be assigned a call sign that appears to be part of such a system. Presumably, the well-known B20 falls into this category.

Finally, the controller of each net has the call sign 0 ("zero"). There may also be a second controller - either a backup station or a commander who has delegated communication tasks to a signaller but may occasionally wish to speak in person - using the call sign 0A ("zero alpha").

Thanks, this is very helpful. I received my copy of 'Chieftain Main Battle Tank: Development and Active Service from Prototype to Mk. 11' last night (http://www.shop.kagero.pl/en/07-fotosnajper-07-chieftain-main-battle-tank-development-and-active-service-from-prototype-to-mk-11.html) and in it is included the full organisation and callsigns of a Chieftain regiment in 1989. In it, I noticed the Headquarters Squadron headquarters section vehicles and the reconnaissance troop vehicles, part of Headquarters Squadron, can have the same callsigns so, what I'm hoping someone can confirm is, would the different elements of the Headquarters Squadron, but especially the reconnaissance troop (since this is what I want to replicate in SB -- in anticipation of the Scimitar arriving in v3.0) receive individual callsign prefixes from the BATCO sheet?

Thanks again.

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Thanks, this is very helpful. I received my copy of 'Chieftain Main Battle Tank: Development and Active Service from Prototype to Mk. 11' last night (http://www.shop.kagero.pl/en/07-fotosnajper-07-chieftain-main-battle-tank-development-and-active-service-from-prototype-to-mk-11.html) and in it is included the full organisation and callsigns of a Chieftain regiment in 1989. In it, I noticed the Headquarters Squadron headquarters section vehicles and the reconnaissance troop vehicles, part of Headquarters Squadron, can have the same callsigns so, what I'm hoping someone can confirm is, would the different elements of the Headquarters Squadron, but especially the reconnaissance troop (since this is what I want to replicate in SB -- in anticipation of the Scimitar arriving in v3.0) receive individual callsign prefixes from the BATCO sheet?

Thanks again.

Well I doubt it since “1989” is pre BATCO (IIRC).

Certainly QDG were using fixed callsigns in Germany in 1989.

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Well I doubt it since “1989” is pre BATCO (IIRC).

Certainly QDG were using fixed callsigns in Germany in 1989.

Ah, good point, thanks (too much mental moving between contemporary and Cold War :confused:). I guess it's back to "fixed" prefixes for that time frame then. On that, and it's not explicit elsewhere in this thread, what were the standard prefixes for recce callsigns -- I think it's Victor -- and the A1 echelon (or is it the same as its parent squadron or company, i.e. Tango or India respectively?)? Apologies for being pedantic, I'm just trying to create some accurate callsign templates for a British armoured / armoured infantry combat team with recce (half-) troop and A1 echelon supporting. Once v3.0 comes out it's likely to get quite a work out!

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First point - you only use Arms prefixes if its a mixed net.

If its A and B Sqn of X Regt then you don’t use Tango, India, Alpha, Golf ....

If you add a company of Infantry to an Armoured Regt but remove the corresponding unit (so add A Company, remove A Squadron) then again no prefixes because there is only one “11”.

If you add a unit and the corresponding “sibling“ unit also remains (so add A Company but you still have A Squadron) then you use prefixes.

Who uses the prefix is determined by who was added to whom.

Armoured Regt with A Squadron has A Company attached then A Company as the “visitors” become “I11”

Mech Bn with A Company has A Squadron attached then A Squadron as the “visitors” become “T11”

Vary rare that you have a just unit HQ with A Company from “a” unit and A Squadron from a 2nd unit added but then both would be visitors and use prefixes I11 and T11.

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Hi All

firstly BATCO was introduced to BAOR in 1984/5 as it was used by the Irish Hussar Battlegroup prior to and after my Conrtrol Signallers course which I completed in Mar 1985. That is fact.

The question about HQ elements using the same C/S can be answered by the fact that there were 2 further matrix's used for support arms: Support 1 and Support 2.

So in all at the BG level and below there were 5 different matrixes to my knowledge.

1 BG Comd

2 BG Admin

3 Sqn/Coy Group x however many manouver groups in the BG

4 Support 1

5 Support 2

Recce Battlegroups had the own versions as well.

As in most areas of learning we used keywords to remember certain lists, the words for Sp1 was FASE and for Sp2 MRMAT.

F = 10 = Field Arty

A = 20 = Air Defence

S = 30 = Swingfire

E = 40 = Engineers

M = 10 = Mortars

R = 20 = Recce

M = 30 = Milan

AT= 40 = AT Helicopters and other Helis.

Because at any one time there may be upto 4 or 5 C/S on a net with the same fixed C/S it was imperitive that the daily changing prefix was never dropped.

Irish

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Please follow the wikepedia link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BATCO

On the BATCO sheet at the bottom you see a scrambled alphabet split into 8 columns each letter has a number below it.

Column 1 = HQ ie Comd and Admin

Columns 2- 5 = Manouver Groups 1-4

Column 6 = Sp 1

Column 7 = Sp 2

Column 8 = Spare

Within the main columns the 4 letters designate Armd primary, Inf primary, Armd secondary, Inf Secondary.

e.g.

So if this were the code for Irish Hussar BG for the day, the following C/S would apply

A Sqn Ldr on the BG Comd net = H10A

A Coy Cmd on the BG Comd net = I10A

If attached A Sqn Ldr 14/20th = X10A

Recce Tp Ldr on any net = M20A

hope this helps.

Irish

ps this might all seem a little pedantic and long winded but it is the basis of all British voice proceedure and C/Ss from the 1980s and 90s

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ps this might all seem a little pedantic and long winded but it is the basis of all British voice proceedure and C/Ss from the 1980s and 90s

Mate, perhaps for broader UK Army and maybe it was a Regt eccentricity but QDG were still “fixed” when I did 2 months there on exchange as a Troop leader. :)

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Panzer Leader,

I have instigated a program of creating templates for various BA regiments (I doubt I'll ever do light inf.) using the Tankograd publication you recommended (And proxy vehicles, until ver 3.0 comes out, will need a green/camo skin for the Civvy 3.5t)

1st up is a Recce Regiment

Need to tweak it here and there for various time zones.

The idea is:

Open it, pick map, add & script OPFOR, down size BLUEFOR to suit = good to go.

I should imagine it'll be added before the weekend.

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Thanks for all your help IrishHussar. I think I'm slowly getting my head around it (well, it is meant to confuse people!) but I still have a couple of questions regarding the callsign template I'm developing for British units so I might drop you a PM if you don't mind? I'm thinking about a scenario once v3.0 is released which will feature BAOR and the CR2 as CR1 proxy, plus the new Scimitar, Warrior and T-64B and A for RED.

Cheers

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Thanks for all your help IrishHussar. I think I'm slowly getting my head around it (well, it is meant to confuse people!) but I still have a couple of questions regarding the callsign template I'm developing for British units so I might drop you a PM if you don't mind? I'm thinking about a scenario once v3.0 is released which will feature BAOR and the CR2 as CR1 proxy, plus the new Scimitar, Warrior and T-64B and A for RED.

Cheers

Well you only need one BATCO, unless you are running a mission either side of midnight. :)

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Well you only need one BATCO, unless you are running a mission either side of midnight. :)

Thats something we must ask Ssnake for, a "If" condition on the callsigns template ;)

"New template if ingame time cross over 23.59:59" :debile2:

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Hi All

firstly BATCO was introduced to BAOR in 1984/5 as it was used by the Irish Hussar Battlegroup prior to and after my Conrtrol Signallers course which I completed in Mar 1985. That is fact.

The question about HQ elements using the same C/S can be answered by the fact that there were 2 further matrix's used for support arms: Support 1 and Support 2.

So in all at the BG level and below there were 5 different matrixes to my knowledge.

1 BG Comd

2 BG Admin

3 Sqn/Coy Group x however many manouver groups in the BG

4 Support 1

5 Support 2

Recce Battlegroups had the own versions as well.

As in most areas of learning we used keywords to remember certain lists, the words for Sp1 was FASE and for Sp2 MRMAT.

F = 10 = Field Arty

A = 20 = Air Defence

S = 30 = Swingfire

E = 40 = Engineers

M = 10 = Mortars

R = 20 = Recce

M = 30 = Milan

AT= 40 = AT Helicopters and other Helis.

Because at any one time there may be upto 4 or 5 C/S on a net with the same fixed C/S it was imperitive that the daily changing prefix was never dropped.

Irish

Soo. If I figure this right... I am fixing on a scenario with a British Warrior Coy and it has support from Battalion Mortars and 1 battery of AS90. I will have some "radio chatter" on the text to inform the players (actually the FO, but all get the same message...) that battery are in position, regrouping etc so they need C/S on the net.

So battalion mortars M10 (M11,M12,M13 etc to indicate individual vehicles)

and AS90 battery being F10 (F11,F12,F13 etc to indicate individual vehicles)

would that be right or am I lost as always?

/KT

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Soo. If I figure this right... I am fixing on a scenario with a British Warrior Coy and it has support from Battalion Mortars and 1 battery of AS90. I will have some "radio chatter" on the text to inform the players (actually the FO, but all get the same message...) that battery are in position, regrouping etc so they need C/S on the net.

So battalion mortars M10 (M11,M12,M13 etc to indicate individual vehicles)

and AS90 battery being F10 (F11,F12,F13 etc to indicate individual vehicles)

would that be right or am I lost as always?

/KT

No, you are describing batteries.

Individual vehicles are:

M10A, M10B.....

M11A, M11B....

etc

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Thanks for all your help IrishHussar. I think I'm slowly getting my head around it (well, it is meant to confuse people!) but I still have a couple of questions regarding the callsign template I'm developing for British units so I might drop you a PM if you don't mind? I'm thinking about a scenario once v3.0 is released which will feature BAOR and the CR2 as CR1 proxy, plus the new Scimitar, Warrior and T-64B and A for RED.

Cheers

You should also be aware that in an Armoured Battlegroup of the 80s and including Gulf War 1, the close Recce Troop was equipped with 8 Scorpian CVRT. It wasnt untill after the first Gulf conflict that the 76mm was put out of service.

Irish

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You should also be aware that in an Armoured Battlegroup of the 80s and including Gulf War 1, the close Recce Troop was equipped with 8 Scorpian CVRT. It wasnt untill after the first Gulf conflict that the 76mm was put out of service.

Irish

Did Formation Reconnaissance Regiments use the Scorpion?

And if so, in addition to, or instead of the Scimitar?

1st QDG - 20th Armoured Brigade

9th/12th Lancers - 7th Armoured Brigade (Your Brigade Irish?)

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Don't forget the Household Cavalry Regt (Life Guards and Blues and Royals).

Them too. :)

Attached 1st draft of the Formation Recce Regiment 1985-2005 Based on 1st Queens Dragoon Guards. (Tankograd Recce Book No. 9011)

This is a Template file to speed up mission creation.

Scimitars

M113A2 w MGS = FV103 Spartan

M901 ITOW = Striker/FV438 - this is replaced with Spartans with Javelin dismounts post 2005

Technical 2.7 w M240 = TUM FFR/General Service Land Rovers - post 2009/2013 a scattering of the higher up Technical/Land Rovers are replaced with Panthers/IMVs

Anyway late. bed time. Zzzzzz.

56e83cf347df5_UKARecon1985-2005_zip.f420

UKA Recon 1985-2005.zip

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Christ, this was my actual trade way back, made my head spin then but now I think I need some sort emotional support, sorry I couldn't help more PL but I was firmly fixed on data burst comms by the time I hung up me headset :)

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Did Formation Reconnaissance Regiments use the Scorpion?

And if so, in addition to, or instead of the Scimitar?

1st QDG - 20th Armoured Brigade

9th/12th Lancers - 7th Armoured Brigade (Your Brigade Irish?)

Was going to write what I could remember about this but the text from wikepedia is more more imformative:

"During the early 1980s, there were four "Type A" armoured reconnaissance regiments as part of the British Army of the Rhine (BAOR), known as Divisional Reconnaissance Regiments and each with three Sabre Squadrons; two Medium Reconnaissance Squadrons comprising four troops of 4 x Scorpions together with a Surveillance Troop of 5 x Spartan equipped with ZB298 radar, plus a Close Reconnaissance squadron of five troops of 8 x Scimitars (one for each battlegroup in the division). There were a further four "Type B" regiments based in the United Kingdom, earmarked for the reinforcement of BAOR; these had two medium reconnaissance squadrons, of Scimitars and Scorpions, and a close reconnaissance squadron equipped with Fox armoured cars. Finally, four Yeomanry regiments of the Territorial Army were intended for home defence; these had four reconnaissance squadrons of Foxes, with a small number of Ferret armoured cars.[2]

By 1986, two regular regiments were permanently stationed in Germany, and titled as Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (Tracked) (BAOR); these had four medium reconnaissance squadrons with Scimitars, each also having an integral guided-weapons troop of Strikers. Each of these would operate with one of BAORs armoured divisions. The third armoured division had its reconnaissance regiment based in England, equipped as a Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (Tracked) (UK); this formation had three medium reconnaissance squadrons of Scimitars and Scorpions, and a fourth guided-weapons squadron of Strikers. A fourth regiment was also equipped to this standard, and based in the UK to support NATO mobile forces. There was a third organisation for regular forces, the Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (UK), which had two tracked reconnaissance squadrons of Scorpions and one wheeled reconnaissance squadron of Foxes. In the Territorial Army, there were two organisations, two Yeomanry Reconnaissance Regiment (BAOR) and three Yeomanry Reconnaissance Regiment (UK). The former were equipped with three or four reconnaissance squadrons of Foxes, and intended for reinforcing units based in West Germany; the latter had three or four reconnaissance squadrons of unarmoured civilian Land Rovers, and was intended solely for home defence.[3]

The 1993 Options for Change review cut the number of regular armoured reconnaissance regiments to two, with a third being created in 1995 by converting the Royal Armoured Corps training regiment.[4] At this point, the regiments were quoted as a combat strength of 48 Scimitars and 12 Strikers; this is comparable to the current regimental structure, but for a four-squadron regiment.[5]

A fourth was created in the 1998 Strategic Defence Review by converting a conventional armoured regiment to the reconnaissance role.[6] The 1998 conversion, however, saw the regiments reduced to three squadrons rather than four, with a single Yeomanry regiment for peacetime reinforcement, with the effect that the total number of operational squadrons remained the same.[7]

The force was increased to five regiments by the 2003 Defence White Paper, again by re-roling an armoured regiment; it is about this time that the designation Formation Reconnaissance Regiment appeared."

hope this helps

Irish

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Thanks Irish, looks like I need to rename my template to 1998 to 2005.... :)

Do you know if the HQ, Aid posts, fitters and the supply troops have maintained the same disposition down the years?

E.G.

HQ = 2 Sultans, 1 Spartan, TUM FFRs

Aid = 1 Samaritan, 4 tonners TUM FFRs

Fitter = 1 Sultan 1 Samaritan, 1 Spartan, TUM GS & TUM FFR

Supply = 1 Sultan plus various 4 & 8 tonners

I'm guessing the TUM FFR role is as a small mobile relay station?

And TUM GS are for moving stuff around various head sheds?

I suppose these are left behind/in the rear when deployed in high intensity action?

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"Unarmoured civilian Landrovers" ? Surely they mean GS and FFR rover fitted out as recce wagons, Tops off GPMG mounts etc, Wikipedia can be a bit off :)

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