M1A1 HA+ VS M1A2 SEP Armor

[[]_--__[]KITT]

Suppose the driver likes that gap in order to get out?

I have no other reasonable arguments.

I was using it in an American slang. Sorry.

Well im not writing to argue just to discuss.

Hmm I don't think apology needed at all

Edit:

On second observation the driver spot on the Challenger 2 hull is also posing as quite a weakspot for the tank but this time on the hull than the turret albeit it being a smaller area than in M1 because the challenger turret doesn't reach the slightly elevated engine compartment at the rear so in a way it is still safer than the M1. Ideally if the M1 is modified so that the turret no longer needs to make room for the elevated engine compartment surface, one way or another(Or the hull gets elongated just a tiny bit), then its weakspot will be similar to that of Challenger 2 albeit still being on the turret to make room for the driver going in and out, unless the position of the driver is changed or the layout is changed so that the driver gets in from the turret.

Edited May 26, 2013 by []_--__[]KITT

[Ssnake]

So what your saying is that a spark can ignite FRH fluid?

http://www.qclubricants.com/royco/royco_770.htm

No. What I was trying to say is that a puncture of a hydraulic system under high pressure can aerosolize the fluid and will therefore create a much, much greater surface to volume ratio than just a bucket of that fluid. In that case ignition is well possible, even if the hydraulic fluid is by far not as volatile as gasoline with its particularly low flash point.

[Assassin 7]

No. What I was trying to say is that a puncture of a hydraulic system under high pressure can aerosolize the fluid and will therefore create a much, much greater surface to volume ratio than just a bucket of that fluid. In that case ignition is well possible, even if the hydraulic fluid is by far not as volatile as gasoline with its particularly low flash point.

Ok, If Crews know their principles of operations and know what to do if something like that was to happen they could survive but would be out of the fight for sure. Such as your statement in the m1, all the commander would have to do is turn off turret power and the Auxiliary hydraulic pump off. The pressure line that is hit would loose it pressure and finally stop poring fluid everywhere. As for the Halon the Driver would suffer the most and all he would have to do is open his hatch or the commander could just turn on the NBC system to filter the Halon out.

[Assassin 7]

During this video a abrams tank was hit:

But by a heat round

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCWC-eO5kXQ

[Ssnake]

Ok, If Crews know their principles of operations and know what to do if something like that was to happen they could survive but would be out of the fight for sure. Such as your statement in the m1, all the commander would have to do is turn off turret power and the Auxiliary hydraulic pump off. The pressure line that is hit would loose it pressure and finally stop poring fluid everywhere. As for the Halon the Driver would suffer the most and all he would have to do is open his hatch or the commander could just turn on the NBC system to filter the Halon out.

I'm sorry, but no. What I was describing were millisecond events. There's no chance that a human crew could avoid an ignition of aerosolized oil spray. That's why there are automatic fire suppression systems in the first place. The NBC system keeps dirty air out, and clean air in. If you have clean air outside and dirty air inside, that's not going to help. Also, Halon binds free oxygen in the air (in order to suffocate an eventual fire). Gas masks don't produce oxygen, they just absorb unwelcome ingredients with activated charcoal. You would still suffocate. The only solution is to open the hatches and to bail the vehicle where you may literally jump out of the frying pan right into the fire.

Once that ammunition goes through the main armor, there are no great options left. You can only choose between alternatives that all stink, just with different kinds of smell.

[Damian90]

_--__[]KITT;235045']But you're missing the point I'm saying other tanks don't share that rather sizeable gap in their mid front facing. That gap usually spells the end of the tank in SB Pro PE while Leo 2A5 or Strv 122 is pretty well protected in their front facing. It has been non issue so far simply because there hasn't been any worthy tank vs tank battle. Other comparable tanks don't seem to share this issue at least not in SB Pro PE

The reason for that sizeable gap is because the engine in M1 is raised at the rear so the turret needs to make room for that raised/elevated surface at the rear so it can turn 360 degree.

If they can make the engine a little smaller then voila! No more gap at the front. So even the designers knew it was presenting a weak spot in the front facing and clearly they didn't want it but it was a compromise forced by the size of the engine. The choice was either that or elevating the entire tank chassis and they chose compromising the turret protection. It also clearly pointed that the M1 wasn't probably designed at first with that larger engine it is now equipped with.

(soapbox' date=' hmm none of my comment was political I'd think so you can stay in it )[/quote']

If you make such statements, first read something about M1 research and development phase. I strongly recommend Hunnicutt books.

In fact M1 (both Chrysler/GDLS and General Motors) was designed with two types of engine in mind, the AGT-1500 Gas Turbine and AVCR-1360 Diesel.

In the end US Army choosen AGT-1500 however both engines had comparable max power, AGT-1500 had approx 2,000HP and AVCR-1360 1,800HP, both engines were however governed to 1,500HP for safety and economic reasons (lower wear and tear).

IMHO the good idea for all western tanks would be to watch what had been developed at east in terms of compact engines and try to design something similiar.

Ukrainians have very interesting flat boxer engines of the 6TD series, the 6TD-2 have power of 1,200HP and there are stronger versions in development phase.

In Russia there is developed a very interesting compact diesel engine in X configuration, not classic V.

Oh yeah, I just find it, engine is called 12N360.

http://www.vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-4377.htm

[ooCURToo]

I strongly recommend Hunnicutt books.

I strongly recommend that I read them too. I can only wish that some day there will be a cheaper digital version of these books.

Maybe you can just lend me $200.00 to buy a used one off of Amazon?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/089141388X

You could just send me yours I suppose.

[Grenny]

Once again its very hard ignite FRH. Its funny cause the Principles of Operations state this:

The NBC System provides the crew with breathable air, free of nuclear, biological, and chemical contaminants in battlefield conditions. It uses engine bleed air as an air source to provide filtered, temperature controlled air to the environmental protection system. An NBC backup system uses an electric blower to draw outside air as a source and provide filtered air when the main system is not available or required. Two configurations of the NBC system are currently in use. The late configuration provides a safer environment for the crew by including additional water extraction and filtration.

What you two forget here two: hydraulic oil that has been working and under preasure is warm to hot! Getting soaced in a 90°C to 110°C fluid inside a confined space is not my idea of fun!

So hydraulic free turret allways gets my vote!!

(also going from hydr. to el. drive you get some positive effects on energy consumtion, maintainablility and other factors...helping reduce the life-cycle-costs of a system)

[Assassin 7]

What you two forget here two: hydraulic oil that has been working and under preasure is warm to hot! Getting soaced in a 90°C to 110°C fluid inside a confined space is not my idea of fun!

So hydraulic free turret allways gets my vote!!

(also going from hydr. to el. drive you get some positive effects on energy consumtion, maintainablility and other factors...helping reduce the life-cycle-costs of a system)

agreed, hopefully the abrams will go to this. Does the electric drives still have a good rate of speed as the hydraulics drives?

[Grenny]

agreed, hopefully the abrams will go to this. Does the electric drives still have a good rate of speed as the hydraulics drives?

Yes, speed is the same!

+you don't have to maintain hydraulic preasure, so you only consume energy when you need it

+you can store and reuse the breaking energy(when you stop the turret f.e.)

+the capacitors used for storing the energy helps smooth the energy net of the tank

...you can scrap the separation of hull and turret net=> better charing voltage for turret

batteries

+you can even start the engine(if needed) with the capacitors alone in case a battery failure

[Assassin 7]

Yes, speed is the same!

+you don't have to maintain hydraulic preasure, so you only consume energy when you need it

+you can store and reuse the breaking energy(when you stop the turret f.e.)

+the capacitors used for storing the energy helps smooth the energy net of the tank

...you can scrap the separation of hull and turret net=> better charing voltage for turret

batteries

+you can even start the engine(if needed) with the capacitors alone in case a battery failure

Very nice! Thanks for the info

[Rhyfel]

The M1A2 SEP is already receiving its TUSK upgrades which includes CROWS, additional belly armor, protective gun shields for the TC/loader and a few other upgrades. This will push the empty weight over 72 tons!

[mpow66m]

will the A2 differ much from the one already in sim?

[Grenny]

will the A2 differ much from the one already in sim?

yes

[mpow66m]

yes

In what ways?if you can.

[cobrabase]

In what ways?if you can.

You can always watch my video on this SPECULATION of how the SEP will differ from the M1A1HA+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHZSQOMdJpc

[mpow66m]

You can always watch my video on this SPECULATION of how the SEP will differ from the M1A1HA+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHZSQOMdJpc

ok,thnx i will.man your hardcore,making a video.

[Ssnake]

You can always watch my video on this SPECULATION of how the SEP will differ from the M1A1HA+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHZSQOMdJpc

WRT to the map screen, you are partially right. I'd like to point out the scenario option to disable map updates - something that will affect only those vehicles WITHOUT a battlefield management system (e.g. Leo 2E, Strv 122, M1A2SEP will still see map updates on their monitors). So, to see the major difference in functionality you need to adjust the test conditions (disable the map updates - apparently something that most players loath, from what I'm hearing).

WRT the thermal view - yes, you'll get the high magnifications, and they make your life in identifying targets easier. I would still like to point out that they are digital zooms, the actual resolution remains fixed. Computer-controlled M1A2s will however be able to identify targets at twice the range that older M1s (and other 1st gen thermal equipped vehicles) can.

[Kingtiger]

So, to see the major difference in functionality you need to adjust the test conditions (disable the map updates - apparently something that most players loath, from what I'm hearing).

Yes and no. Having map updates off in a faceless terrain without good features are just painful, but if the scenario and the terrain are detailed fighting with no map updates are pretty damn fun. But as everything else in SB, it needs a wee bit of practice before you get the hang of it

[dmagnusson]

Is that a "ohh ssnake suprise" as the guy say in Indiana Jones

[Ssnake]

Not sure what you mean with that (I am of course familiar with Dr. Jones', uh, mixed feelings related to legless reptiles)...?

[mpow66m]

Well, as someone who sits firmly in the M1 camp, I will probably never use a Leopard 2A5+ or derivative again just to experience the benefits of a CITV for the TC. Bring on the M1A2 SEP I say!

the CITV is the same as the TIM?is is there some differance?

[Ssnake]

They are comparable, although the CITV offers one extra digital magnification step.

[OnAlienware]

Can we get the SEP's armor diagram loaded to the wiki? It'd be great to see the numbers, and compare.

Thanks!