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Challenger 2 a suitable stand-in for Challenger 1?

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Would a Challenger 2 be too inappropriate as a stand-in for the Challenger 1 in a scenario set in 1988? From the data I've found I still can't determine whether the Challenger 2 would be "cheating too much" in '88. Thanks in advance...

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weight wise they're nearly identical, challenger 1 is 62 tonnes, challenger 2 62.5 tonnes.

the major change is in the fire control system, the challenger 1 FCS was a nightmare to work with.

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..., the challenger 1 FCS was a nightmare to work with.

*headscratch*...so what did they change then??

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I guess the relevant question is whether the Challenger 2 is a significantly superior killing machine than the Challenger 1. In which case it would be an unfair stand-in.

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*headscratch*...so what did they change then??

Erm, Fire control wise: everything!

Power traverse is about the only thing that is the same.

Challenger 1 uses Chieftain IFCS which is based on a 1960s/70s gun sight which has been upgraded with Ballistic computer, stabilization, TOGS

(It kind of works like the Leo AS1, Lase, reticule adjusts, relay reticule, fire.)

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I think irony is a lost art. :)

I suspect Grenny meant that given CR2 is a bit of a PITA (esp. for HESH) and its "so much better" than CR1, then what did they improve?

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The C2 reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Homer becomes a boxer. He just stands there taking hit after hit.

....until he gets hit in his glas jaw(lower glacis/driver vision block area) and gets KOed...:(

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I think irony is a lost art. :)

I suspect Grenny meant that given CR2 is a bit of a PITA (esp. for HESH) and its "so much better" than CR1, then what did they improve?

Well then, I guess my American and British scenarios in the north German plains will have to wait. Will stick to Fulda and Frankfurt AO. Inventory for US, German, and Russian forces are very comprehensive for 1988 period fortunately. :thumbup:

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Well then, I guess my American and British scenarios in the north German plains will have to wait. Will stick to Fulda and Frankfurt AO. Inventory for US, German, and Russian forces are very comprehensive for 1988 period fortunately. :thumbup:

Actually, if you're a purist, you'll have to wait for arrival of T-64BV and T-80BV for "Russian" part of both NGP and Fulda. However, there are always non-Russian Soviet armies using T-72s. i.e. East Germany, Poland, etc.

Also, the current ODS bradley is unfortunately overkill for the time period due to lack of advanced ammo for BMPs to negate armor advantage. M1-M113 combo of earlier period is still viable though. (But in this case, lack of earlier versions of TOWs remains a thorn in the eye)

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Actually, if you're a purist, you'll have to wait for arrival of T-64BV and T-80BV for "Russian" part of both NGP and Fulda. However, there are always non-Russian Soviet armies using T-72s. i.e. East Germany, Poland, etc.

Also, the current ODS bradley is unfortunately overkill for the time period due to lack of advanced ammo for BMPs to negate armor advantage. M1-M113 combo of earlier period is still viable though. (But in this case, lack of earlier versions of TOWs remains a thorn in the eye)

Oh man, the more background research I do, the more frustrated I get trying to put together a 1980's Cold War scen pitting frontline NATO and WP units. Pushing the timeline to 2000 would then put an imaginary Soviet Union at an unfair disadvantage due to lack of BMP3 and T90. :decu:

Glad to hear original TOWs will be available, but I wonder if there is a way I can handicap the CR2 and ODS Bradley to suit my needs. Will tinker more with editor...

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Glad to hear original TOWs will be available, but I wonder if there is a way I can handicap the CR2 and ODS Bradley to suit my needs. Will tinker more with editor...

I think the best you can do with the Bradley to make it pre-ODS is disable the LRF in the Mission Editor. There's nothing you can do about the appliqué armour of the A2 which is baked into the model. With the earliest model of TOW also set in the (2.654) Mission Editor I find it's a good enough proxy for the late Cold War A1 or A2. It may not be enough for purists though.

As for the C2, I'm not an expert on the vehicle, but I think it's best to use it "out of the box" as a C1 proxy. That was certainly the approach taken in a recent Cold War-focused MP campaign (Red Tide?).

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Well, within the constraints of the platform, yes :biggrin: But, for some of my scenarios, I've had to adapt ASLAV-25 to be Spahpanzer Luchs A2 and T-80U to be T-64BV... There's a saying I think Tacbat used to have in his signature which always resonates with me when thinking about how best to adapt something we do have in Steel Beasts to something we don't have: "Imagine harder!".

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Well, within the constraints of the platform, yes :biggrin: But, for some of my scenarios, I've had to adapt ASLAV-25 to be Spahpanzer Luchs A2 and T-80U to be T-64BV... There's a saying I think Tacbat used to have in his signature which always resonates with me when thinking about how best to adapt something we do have in Steel Beasts to something we don't have: "Imagine harder!".

Squinting helps too you know! :biggrin:

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Oh man, the more background research I do, the more frustrated I get trying to put together a 1980's Cold War scen pitting frontline NATO and WP units. Pushing the timeline to 2000 would then put an imaginary Soviet Union at an unfair disadvantage due to lack of BMP3 and T90. :decu:

Glad to hear original TOWs will be available, but I wonder if there is a way I can handicap the CR2 and ODS Bradley to suit my needs. Will tinker more with editor...

With the addition of early TOWs, we have more or less complete set of late 70s-early 80s US armor/mech unit (not cav, sheridan would have to wait) which uses M1, M60, M113, and M901

For Russian OPFOR of the time period, I reckon T-72B (w/o ERA) would be good enough substitute for early 80s T-64A/B. (reportedly, after 1981, only difference between T-64A and T-64B is FCS suite.)

As for ODS Brad, you may take away its LRF but there's nothing you can do about its armor. 30mm APDS would simply ding and 73mm Grom would struggle. We need either 30mm APFSDS or early bradley versions to make BMP main guns a threat that they were during 80s.

One bright side from all these purist gloom is that should either the T-64BV or T-80BV appear in SB, one can be a good stand in for the other.

Their Turrets have been standardized since 1981. And their hull armor also could have been standardized as well after final 1984 armor revision (which led to BV designation)

FCS and tactical mobility are at least comparable for both.

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With the addition of early TOWs, we have more or less complete set of late 70s-early 80s US armor/mech unit (not cav, sheridan would have to wait) which uses M1, M60, M113, and M901

For Russian OPFOR of the time period, I reckon T-72B (w/o ERA) would be good enough substitute for early 80s T-64A/B. (reportedly, after 1981, only difference between T-64A and T-64B is FCS suite.)

As for ODS Brad, you may take away its LRF but there's nothing you can do about its armor. 30mm APDS would simply ding and 73mm Grom would struggle. We need either 30mm APFSDS or early bradley versions to make BMP main guns a threat that they were during 80s.

One bright side from all these purist gloom is that should either the T-64BV or T-80BV appear in SB, one can be a good stand in for the other.

Their Turrets have been standardized since 1981. And their hull armor also could have been standardized as well after final 1984 armor revision (which led to BV designation)

FCS and tactical mobility are at least comparable for both.

An earlier bradley would be the best option.

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I've been studying the SB Wiki vehicle timeline and it looks like 1985 is the sweet spot for what's currently available in 2.654 and what we've seen so far for 3.0. A stock M2 and T-64BV are the only missing key players and so my fingers are crossed for their arrival.

The path of least resistance lies within American and Russian inventory for this time period. The German inventory is already quite complete so it looks like I should focus my imagination on these three nations.

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I've been studying the SB Wiki vehicle timeline and it looks like 1985 is the sweet spot for what's currently available in 2.654 and what we've seen so far for 3.0. A stock M2 and T-64BV are the only missing key players and so my fingers are crossed for their arrival.

The path of least resistance lies within American and Russian inventory for this time period. The German inventory is already quite complete so it looks like I should focus my imagination on these three nations.

Sorry for constant nitpicking but let me just remind in passing that German inventory also has "Cold War IFV Gap" (need earlier marder models)

Earlier Leo-2 models are also lacking but they can be simulated by disabling TIS (in case of very first production models) and using more advanced 125mm ammo.

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The path of least resistance lies within American and Russian inventory for this time period. The German inventory is already quite complete so it looks like I should focus my imagination on these three nations.

What is complete, the german inventory? a playable marder, a playable Jaguar.

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What is complete, the german inventory? a playable marder, a playable Jaguar.

I felt that the German inventory in SB is complete in that there is a contemporary/frontline MBT, IFV, and AT for the 1985 period (Companion popped my bubble on that though) available to the designer. They need not be playable. For me, any vehicle beyond the Abrams and Bradley series that is made playable is pure bonus.

I'm seeing a lot of cool rear echelon vehicles that I've been craving that will be available in 3.0. I'm very excited about the M1A1 and IP as well. I hope in the near future that Bradley and T-64 models available in 1985 will become available (and perhaps an MBT, IFV, AT, Recce suite for the French and Brits further down the pipe).

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What is complete, the german inventory? a playable marder, a playable Jaguar.

And the Britlish???!!!

(whose whole sector is reflected in the Hannover map.)

We only have a Scorpion in 3.0!

(Challenger 2 is waaaay to advanced for 1980s.)

I would however love to see a Leopard 2A0, just to see how different it is to the 2A6/Lepardo :biggrin:

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Servus Hedge,

And the Britlish???!!!

(whose whole sector is reflected in the Hannover map.)

We only have a Scorpion in 3.0!

(Challenger 2 is waaaay to advanced for 1980s.)

I would however love to see a Leopard 2A0, just to see how different it is to the 2A6/Lepardo :biggrin:

Ssnake published ca 75% of the new vehicles. I wish UK Armour a playable Warrior, Scimmitar, Rhino and.....

Also all the best to the french players, with LECLERC and co.

So at now you have still the chance to get one of your british vehicles.

We germans got the message from Ssanke no playable Marder1A3 in 3.0.

best regards

Duke

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Servus Hedge,

Ssnake published ca 75% of the new vehicles. I wish UK Armour a playable Warrior, Scimmitar, Rhino and.....

Also all the best to the french players, with LECLERC and co.

So at now you have still the chance to get one of your british vehicles.

We germans got the message from Ssanke no playable Marder1A3 in 3.0.

best regards

Duke

Have to wait 2 years at least for a Leclerc...

Same goes for any other french vehicules (except AMX13...)

Me want this one too! (My first ride) It has CAST turret!!!!!

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attachment.php?attachmentid=11934&stc=1&d=1371720413

56e83ce5895a9_manueltourelleAMX30petit.j

AMX30B2.jpg.b1d088d33cf5996b79c1568d5444

56e83ce5895a9_manueltourelleAMX30petit.j

AMX30B2.jpg.b1d088d33cf5996b79c1568d5444

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