gunner accuracy

[peter winship]

Does this all sound right? I'm playing the Bridges at Al-Taibiya Scenario, but with M1A2s (and some arty). I'd read that the range of sabot rounds was 4km. I'm playing with 100% gunnery rating (very easy to get if you use the M1A2), but if I set fire control to 'fire at will' or even '3.5km' then my AI gunners expend all their sabots firing from the max possible range I've allowed, rarely hitting anything. Before I know it I've no sabots and nothing has been destroyed. So. Is there an advisable fire control setting distance to use when firing sabots/mpats etc? Which is much closer in than the max, I assume? (I'm assuming it's the distance that leads to their lack of hits).

And how do I get them to replenish the sabot rounds from the tank stores? Is that the reload button from the top of the screen? I tried it, but they only seem to load one at a time.

Many thanks! (Again)

[Grenny]

Does this all sound right? I'm playing the Bridges at Al-Taibiya Scenario, but with M1A2s (and some arty). I'd read that the range of sabot rounds was 4km. I'm playing with 100% gunnery rating (very easy to get if you use the M1A2), but if I set fire control to 'fire at will' or even '3.5km' then my AI gunners expend all their sabots firing from the max possible range I've allowed, rarely hitting anything. Before I know it I've no sabots and nothing has been destroyed. So. Is there an advisable fire control setting distance to use when firing sabots/mpats etc? Which is much closer in than the max, I assume? (I'm assuming it's the distance that leads to their lack of hits).

And how do I get them to replenish the sabot rounds from the tank stores? Is that the reload button from the top of the screen? I tried it, but they only seem to load one at a time.

Many thanks! (Again)

Max. Range might differ from "effective range"...keep that in mind :-P

Also the AI will keep firing a semi concealed targets that you have nearly zero chance of hitting from long distances.

Be patient...ammo reload need several minutes. If the AI spots enemy during that time they cease reloading...

[peter winship]

Thanks Grenny. Is there an 'effective' range for the sabots, given this AI?

I notice, if you load mpats, that the AI will also just keep firing them off, even when there's no chance of a hit (where the trajectory goes through a forest, for example - but the los doesn't - and the rounds explode in the trees, well away from the target). Not sure how to stop this kind of behaviour without getting into the gunner seat of each and every tank....or really closing down the range. The AI should see the problem, I feel.

[Grenny]

Thanks Grenny. Is there an 'effective' range for the sabots, given this AI?

I notice, if you load mpats, that the AI will also just keep firing them off, even when there's no chance of a hit (where the trajectory goes through a forest, for example - but the los doesn't - and the rounds explode in the trees, well away from the target). Not sure how to stop this kind of behaviour without getting into the gunner seat of each and every tank....or really closing down the range. The AI should see the problem, I feel.

If AI starts seeing those kinds of problems (and solving them)...I fear for humanities survival ;-)

The vehicle AI in SB is far from perfect, but if you give them a good position (with a clear field of fire)...and expose them only if the enemy is within, say 3000m...they are pretty good.

[peter winship]

I think those kinds of problems are solvable without worrying about humanity :clin: - they're LOS problems, that must be solvable, I think. Many games handle LOS problems of a similar sort. Not that I know anything about programming. But I think it shouldn't happen that if the AI is confronted with the situation in the pic attached that it keeps firing Mpats which burst in the foliage above and in front of the target: [ATTACH]12448[/ATTACH]

[Grenny]

That one is quiete hard to hit in the first place.

But there are many factors:

-can I shoot trough the cover in front of the vehicle

-what kind of and in which place are there obstructions in the way

(and that over the whole flight path of the round)

-the AI would have to judge if the "not destruction" of the target was due to

- shot deflection (left/right, high/low, short/far ??)

- obstruction

...

very easy to the human eye, real problems to a software

[peter winship]

And it's 3,500m away! Yes. But since we can't - and are not expected to - control all the tanks in our command in the sense of trying to sit in the gunner's seat, then it's quite important that the AI doesn't squander all the ammo in such situations. So it's worth mentioning, no - for future improvements?

[Grenny]

And it's 3,500m away! Yes. But since we can't - and are not expected to - control all the tanks in our command in the sense of trying to sit in the gunner's seat, then it's quite important that the AI doesn't squander all the ammo in such situations. So it's worth mentioning, no - for future improvements?

ahm...yes..

[wolfstriked]

Just press hold fire for platoon and try to get closer.:bigsmile:

[Agiel]

Something I've noticed playing the "Hurricane at Fulda (with M1A1s instead of M1A0s)" and "Defense of Kozda" scenarios.

Even with 100% gunnery score my allied tanks (and even myself) struggle to hit opposing T-72s in prepared defenses at 2000m in the former scenario. In the Defense of Kozda mission, even in hull-down position the opposing AI has not problems scoring consistent hits on my tank with the first shot at 2500m and over (reliable penetrations are another matter).

[dejawolf]

the reason for the gun accuracy:

dispersion of the l44 120mm gun is approximately .24 mils

while on th L48 125mm gun, it's around .2 mils.

also the muzzle velocity of russian rounds is higher, and trajectories are therefore a bit flatter.

[Splash]

Something I've noticed playing the "Hurricane at Fulda (with M1A1s instead of M1A0s)" and "Defense of Kozda" scenarios.

Even with 100% gunnery score my allied tanks (and even myself) struggle to hit opposing T-72s in prepared defenses at 2000m in the former scenario. In the Defense of Kozda mission, even in hull-down position the opposing AI has not problems scoring consistent hits on my tank with the first shot at 2500m and over (reliable penetrations are another matter).

Indeed. Those ruskie gunners are quite the marksmen with neither tis nor dynamic lead.

This was in version 2.654 ... High-speed crossing shot with only a short flash of visibility. At about 3500m. Daaaayyy-um:

[Agiel]

the reason for the gun accuracy:

dispersion of the l44 120mm gun is approximately .24 mils

while on th L48 125mm gun, it's around .2 mils.

also the muzzle velocity of russian rounds is higher, and trajectories are therefore a bit flatter.

I believe I've read in the documentation that as a result of the ring-sabot design at longer ranges Soviet ammunition suffers greater performance degradation at longer ranges than western ammo. Wouldn't that mean it is more susceptible to aerodynamic destabilisation factors at those kinds of ranges?

[Assassin 7]

the reason for the gun accuracy:

dispersion of the l44 120mm gun is approximately .24 mils

while on th L48 125mm gun, it's around .2 mils.

also the muzzle velocity of russian rounds is higher, and trajectories are therefore a bit flatter.

Where's the source of this information? just asking

[jazjar]

Dej Could you or your sources be more specific? Which round for each gun produces that sort of dispersion, since the round is also a very big influence on how muc the round spreads.

[dejawolf]

Where's the source of this information? just asking

.24 is a quote from nils on the DM12A1 HEAT round.

http://steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=11574

.2 figure i pulled from morozov.com.ua for the KBA3 gun, which is nearly identical to the

russian 125mm 2A46M series guns for the T-72B T-80U and T-90.

http://morozov.com.ua/eng/body/kba3.php