imposible shooting bugs

[Overlord]

Hi all.

I would like to report that in the course of a MP battle and the subsequent MLR we had detected impossible shoots through houses the atakker was not viewing angle of fire, and had several houses in between them, we were in a midle of a city.

Another thing is that it seems that the IA armored vehicles, fall in water very easily when crossing bridges or take delicate situations although column.

We played sbpro version 3.002.

Thanks

PD: Google trans.

[dejawolf]

Hi all.

I would like to report that in the course of a MP battle and the subsequent MLR we had detected impossible shoots through houses the atakker was not viewing angle of fire, and had several houses in between them, we were in a midle of a city.

Another thing is that it seems that the IA armored vehicles, fall in water very easily when crossing bridges or take delicate situations although column.

We played sbpro version 3.002.

Thanks

PD: Google trans.

not really a bug, i've been able to shoot a tank through a building myself, killing it, by guessing where it is.

[Werewolf]

not really a bug, i've been able to shoot a tank through a building myself, killing it, by guessing where it is.

Are you a serving tanker? I was. We would never have attempted to shoot THRU a house. Into one for sure to start a fire or maybe even knock it down (probably not) but thru it to hit something on the other side? Maybe if hard pressed we might have popped off an APDS shot thru a wooden house but never HEP or HEAT and certainly not thru a brick or stone house.

Pretty much shouldn't be allowed IMO.

It's a :gun: bug. Kill it!

[DarkLabor]

Are you a serving tanker? I was. We would never have attempted to shoot THRU a house. Into one for sure to start a fire or maybe even knock it down (probably not) but thru it to hit something on the other side? Maybe if hard pressed we might have popped off an APDS shot thru a wooden house but never HEP or HEAT and certainly not thru a brick or stone house.

Pretty much shouldn't be allowed IMO.

It's a :gun: bug. Kill it!

Where do you read he shot a HEAT or HEP round...?

Did that (with sabots!), way back in 2008-2009 that pissed the 911 guys so I stopped.

[F9F Panther]

So do you think there is any truth to this story, taken from Tom Clancy's non-fiction book "Armor Cav"?

The setting: Desert Storm, during General Barry McCaffrey's 24th Mechanized Infantry Division's run to the Euphrates River. It was raining heavily, and one M1 managed to get stuck in a mud hole and could not be extracted. With the rest of their unit moving on, the crew of the stuck tank waited for a recovery vehicle to pull them out.

Suddenly, as they were waiting, three Iraqi T-72 tanks came over a hill and charged the mud-bogged tank. One T-72 fired a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) round that hit the frontal turret armor of the M1, but did no damage. At this point, the crew of the M1, though still stuck, fired a 120mm armor-piercing round at the attacking tank. The round penetrated the T-72's turret, blowing it off into the air. By this time, the second T-72 had also fired a HEAT round at the M1. That also hit the front of the turret, and did no damage. The M1 immediately dispatched this T-72 with another 120mm round.

After that, the third and now last T-72 fired a 125mm armor-piercing round at the M1 from a range of 400 meters. This only grooved the front armor plate. Seeing that continued action did not have much of a future, the crew of the last T-72 decided to run for cover. Spying a nearby sand berm, the Iraqis darted behind it, thinking they would be safe there. Back in the M1, the crew saw through the Thermal Imaging Sight (TIS) the hot plume of the T-72's engine exhaust spewing up from behind the berm. Aiming carefully through the TIS, the M1's crew fired a third 120mm round through the berm, into the tank, destroying it.

[Tacbat]

I would like to report that in the course of a MP battle and the subsequent MLR we had detected impossible shoots through houses the atakker was not viewing angle of fire, and had several houses in between them, we were in a midle of a city.

Can you upload the AAR if it's small enough? Shooting through a building happens from time to time, but I don't think I've seen a shot through multiple buildings before. There was a previous report of this happening on a specific building, so it would be interesting to see if it was the same building in this case, or a different one.

[Volcano]

Are you a serving tanker? I was. We would never have attempted to shoot THRU a house. Into one for sure to start a fire or maybe even knock it down (probably not) but thru it to hit something on the other side? Maybe if hard pressed we might have popped off an APDS shot thru a wooden house but never HEP or HEAT and certainly not thru a brick or stone house.

Pretty much shouldn't be allowed IMO.

It's a :gun: bug. Kill it!

Uh, hmm, in real life (IRL) AND in SB: a KE round CAN physically shoot through a house and kill a target on the other side. An HEAT round cannot unless it is very close to the wall that it impacted on.

How many times did you fire tank rounds at live targets in a war? My guess is that in WW3 you would do whatever you had to do, firing through houses or not. Voluntarily deciding not to shoot through a house shouldn't translate into houses being impervious to rounds.

No bug here. Whether or not a round can fly through multiple buildings IRL and in SB depends on the building construction, and the round power.

[Volcano]

Where do you read he shot a HEAT or HEP round...?

Did that (with sabots!), way back in 2008-2009 that pissed the 911 guys so I stopped.

Why stop? They can do the same to you, and houses in SB appropriately weaken a round depending on the thickness of the walls it passes through. It does take some skill (and luck) to fire through a building and hit the right spot for a kill (and it is quite silly to hide a tank behind a single barn or house and expect to be safe). The only thing a building provides a tank vs. 120mm KE ammunition is concealment, and a little bit of cover, unless you are hiding behind a building made of HESCO walls.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Volcano
clarification

[DarkLabor]

You're right.

But at the same time the reduced penetration power and the civies saving policy (with 3.0 you can now judge if they are in the buildings) tend to make me stop it.

[Assassin 7]

Are you a serving tanker? I was. We would never have attempted to shoot THRU a house. Into one for sure to start a fire or maybe even knock it down (probably not) but thru it to hit something on the other side? Maybe if hard pressed we might have popped off an APDS shot thru a wooden house but never HEP or HEAT and certainly not thru a brick or stone house.

Pretty much shouldn't be allowed IMO.

It's a :gun: bug. Kill it!

We shot Iraqi tanks and PC's through building's with Sabots in OIF 1 during the thunder run. So yes a Sabot will go straight through buildings.

[Invader ZIM]

I always liked how SB modelled the penetration of rounds, you can even do this in the sim.

And I sort of figured that a sand berm would affect the round more than, say a thin brick wall or wooden frame of a house, especially with the DM53's and M829A3's.

[Ssnake]

Actually, sand berms in SB Pro offer absolute safety against direct fire ... not necessarily so in real life.

I concede that firing a sabot through multiple houses, or even just a single house with a distance of several hundred meter to the actual target is somewhat dubious. On the first impact the stabilizing fin assembly would probably rip off, and the impact itself would apply some lateral loads to make the sabot tumble a bit. Without the stabilizing fins it is unlikely that the projectile would recover into a stable flight position.

But here's the catch - there is only so much that we can simulate. We're offering a model of the real world, designed for real-time application. Some simplifications are inevitable, and simulating turbulent supersonic airflow to figure out the pitch and yaw of a "de-finned" sabot penetrator is out of the scope of our model.

So, every building wall reduces the projectile's power until the power is expended or the round hits the ground or a certain maximum cut-off range (10km? 30? I don't remember) has been exceeded.

[Invader ZIM]

Actually, sand berms in SB Pro offer absolute safety against direct fire

Well, that may be, but the visual representation in the sim is pretty convincing compared with the real photo I posted above.

I love this sim.

[Tjay]

Another thing is that it seems that the IA armored vehicles, fall in water very easily when crossing bridges or take delicate situations although column.

Yes, still the case, although much improved from 2.654 IMHO. Take it at slow speed in close column and you should be OK. And make sure the lead vehicle keeps straight on until the last one is across - or the AI might try to take a 'short cut' across the water with disastrous consequences.

[Tjay]

I always liked how SB modelled the penetration of rounds, you can even do this in the sim.

And I sort of figured that a sand berm would affect the round more than, say a thin brick wall or wooden frame of a house, especially with the DM53's and M829A3's.

I am told that sandbags are a lot more effective than just heaped up sand. Presumably because each one acts as an independent layer. Any comments?

[Grenny]

I am told that sandbags are a lot more effective than just heaped up sand. Presumably because each one acts as an independent layer. Any comments?

You need about 1m of Sandbags (3 layers) to stop a rifle round.

I can't even guess how much you'd need to stop a 120mm sabot/fin round :-P

[Ssnake]

I am told that sandbags are a lot more effective than just heaped up sand. Presumably because each one acts as an independent layer. Any comments?

Bagged sand indeed is more effective, partially because the bagging itself can absorb a bit more energy, but mostly because it simply stay in shape under fire (at least for a longer period, certainly not infinitely long). HE rounds with delayed impact fuze will however still reduce a sand bag obstacle rather quickly.

[Overlord]

Hello again.

As we saw after the combat in AAR one house thre is not the problem, the problem was when there is no line of fire, many threes and houses are in middle and the T-72 shooting through several houses on the other side of town.

It was an impossible shot.

The mission are "Red Dragon M7" avariable in downloads.

Thanks all

[Ssnake]

But maybe there was a line of sight when the computer-controlled gunner fired, and because the target was moving the lead angle made the round fly through the houses? In the AAR, go to the event then step back to the previous "non-event" which is hopefully just one or two seconds prior. That might coincide with the time of flight at the given range, so this would be the moment when the tank fired its gun. Now check again if there is actually line of sight.