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Amazing Russian Tank Gunnery


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Nice finds, Zim ! But turning ones attention to a target that is 4500+ m away and hitting it from that distance are two very different things :sad2:

Trying to get a first round hit even with Leopard 2E or Leopard 2A5A2 DK thermals will be a daunting challenge.

Also , i do not seem to be able to lase reliably from the M1A2 beyond 4000+ m when both my tank and the enemy vehicle (this case a t-90S) is moving. I get a lot of different returns.

Is anybody else having these problems?

Its working correctly try to lase and shoot in 25x. Just shot a T-90 going full speed at 4800 meters. It only took 2 shots to kill it

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Thx for the feedback Delta. I tried your method and it worked on targets coming head on nicely. But once targets approach me form a very oblique angle I can not track them effectively since my joystick over or undertracks them, it never gets their motion right. I tried reducing the sensitivity of the thing but its just inadequate for effective mobile gunnery beyond 2500 m. Its frustrating to see the supporting AI do it without any effort.

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LOL, where'd you guys come from?

76c1funny-Soviet-Russia-guns-cannon-500x437.jpg

But thanks for the info Dta Delta, my problem was I was attempting to lase and use the 50x power on the M1A2 for lasing and also engagement, the 25x does seem to work better for me.

I use an old Cyborg 3D Gold joystick and I'm able to track and hit moving targets out to 4km now. Not exactly reliably mind you, but I can do it. :)

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I played another scenario where i disabled the T80Us ability to use dynamic lead. The T80s still did not have any problems hitting me from 4800 m away, while both I and them were in motion. HA HA. :c:

In another scenario the AI Leo 2a4 did not see 3 T80s them until it was hit at least 8 times. :roll:

In both scenarios i set the difficulty to easy and the view range to 6000 m.

:confused:

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LOL, where'd you guys come from?

76c1funny-Soviet-Russia-guns-cannon-500x437.jpg

But thanks for the info Dta Delta, my problem was I was attempting to lase and use the 50x power on the M1A2 for lasing and also engagement, the 25x does seem to work better for me.

I use an old Cyborg 3D Gold joystick and I'm able to track and hit moving targets out to 4km now. Not exactly reliably mind you, but I can do it. :)

You want to see the "Spam deletes you!" one.

Priceless, you couldn't make it up.

:heu:

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Well, this certainly is an interesting test with the AI, I'm surprised there isn't some kind of penalty applied to the AI tanks accuracy when systems are disabled. There might be, but the player won't notice what's going on under the hood a lot of times. Perhaps a setting for slower AI reaction time to lay gun on target, or to have the AI stop the tank before firing if the stabilizer is out, etc would produce more realistic damaged vehicle behavior.

Thanks Hedgehog for the heads up on the Spam deletes you! meme, actually never saw that one, wow... heh.

I like my own "T-xx Can also into space" one though since it seems everyone loves the Super Russian tanks in many games.

T-72canalsointospacememe.jpg

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LOL, it's definately a matter of perspective.

If you set the visibility conditions to certain level and modify your difficulty level, I'm sure most people can find where the sim is both fun and feels right in regards to realism/reaction times of AI forces to them.

Sometimes for me, it's fustrating when my tanks come upon an enemy under 1km and decide they want to engage the BTR-80 instead of the T-72 :)

But it's far and away better than anything else out there. I don't think many sim and game makers even bother with AI much anymore. They seem to rely on live online player modes for the most part. And I hate to say it, but sometimes the real players are worse than the AI from the games sometimes, especially when your trying to be serious about things.

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Trouble is the AI tends to obsess over things, until they are dead, Embellished example:

"There's a BTR kill it!"

"Sir, we have no HE rounds that can reliably kill it, but we have KE rounds for that T-72 that's effectively engaging us."

"I care not for that T-72! Kill the BTR!"

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Yep, that's sort of what it feels like when you have to fight the AI in your own tank at times.

I wonder if there's a way for the AI to do a quick line of sight check, where if a tank is in sight, it takes priority over anything else that's enemy, and in the line of sight. Then IFV's, personell carriers, then troops. Maybe not a good solution either I guess.

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I ran another super tank T80U scenario with both the dynamic lead and stabilisation disabled in the T80s. This time they managed to actually one-shot me from 4900m through my ammo bunker, which send the turret flying. They were using BM-42 rounds not refleks missiles.

Ow, talk about bitch-slapping.

:biggrin:

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I had some time today and was curious as to the results so I decided to try and see what was going on with the T-80U.

So I used the default blank terrain map for mission editing and placed the T-80U at 5km facing an M1A2SEP, giving it a defend order.

The T-80U's ammunition loadout was changed so that it only carried BM-42 rounds.

The M1A2 was set up so that it only carried M829A3 rounds. In the mission editor when I set up the T-80U with BM-42, I noticed that the pink range ring only went out to about 3km, which was consistant with something some of the others had mentioned on effective range of a sabot round engagement from the T-tanks.

When I set up the M1A2 to face the T-80 at 5km, I noticed it's range ring went out to about 4 km range, indicating a longer effective range for the M829A3.

So I also set the weather to perfect, 6km visibility.

Once in the scenario and driving the M1A2 I easily picked up the T-80U in my thermal sight, it did not see me, but was scanning toward me as it searched. So I drove toward it, 4.5km, 4km, 3.5km, then the first shot at me at 3.2km. Excellent!! This shows the units seem to be behaving as they should, even under ideal weather.

So the question is, lavictoireestlavie, are you using version 3.0 of SBPro or and older version?

And if using 3.0, are you sure in the mission editor that you removed all other weapons except the BM-42's from the T-80U in your tests? Because if the T-80U has it's Reflecks missle, the effective engagement range under perfect conditions is 5km, and it will hit you under perfect conditions over 4km like you describe. In the mission editor, you'll see the pink effective range when setting up the tanks ammo go out to 5km when you have Refleks on the tank. I noticed the difference in effective range while messing with the various ammo.

If the ammo is changed in a tank, and it says a particular ammos effective range is 3.5km, expect to be engaged around that range with that round by the AI. If the tank has another ammo type that goes beyond that range, and if visibility or thermal optics permit, you'll be engaged by the longer range round when possible.

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Yep, that's sort of what it feels like when you have to fight the AI in your own tank at times.

I wonder if there's a way for the AI to do a quick line of sight check, where if a tank is in sight, it takes priority over anything else that's enemy, and in the line of sight. Then IFV's, personell carriers, then troops. Maybe not a good solution either I guess.

The routines for tank crew are easy: "from close to far, from outside to inside..." That the simple part. It mean if there's a T-80 at 1500 and one at 2000...shoot the one at 1500 first. If you are the left tank in your platoon(unit) shoot the "most left" target you see.

Its the second part of that sentence:"... most dangerous threat first!"...because that depends on a lot of "variables".

There are situations where you should ignore the T-80 at 1300, but shoot at the Bridge-layer or mine-breacher further ahead. There are situations where a BMP is a bigger threat....and so on.

Edited by Grenny
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I agree with you Grenny, yea there's a lot of times the troops I've encountered under 1km were a bigger threat to my tanks than other enemy tanks a longer distance away, so I can see how this priority of engagement can be really complex for an AI to work out. I guess that's why programming AI is so difficult, especially so when your trying to simulate a human thought process and vehicle/human limitations.

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Zim, I tested your setup. Although my scenario is a little different.

This time I had one M1A2 SEP against 3 T-80Us on the flat terrain map with visibility to 18000m (or 6000m) . My Abrams had a full unlimited loadout of M829A2 rounds and the T-80Us had a full unlimited loadout of BM-42 KE rounds. The T-80Us started to advance from 5,5 km away. I was stationary. Just like in your scenario, the T-80Us did not react and engage me until they were within the official effective range of their BM-42 rounds. Which in this case was 3300 m.

My original scenario with a Leopard 2A4 and again with the M1A2 SEP showed that the three T-80Us start to engage me at 5000m with BM-42s with their default ammunition loadout of BM-42, Refleks,etc.

In this scenario they usually score hits from around 4800-4900m away.

You could give my scenario a try. Please, let me know what happens.

Thanks !

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with their default ammunition loadout of BM-42, Refleks,etc.

Cool, so we're almost experiencing the same thing then. As long as you only have KE rounds in the T-80 tanks as you saw they'll only engage at the range rating of the KE rounds, in this case the BM-42.

But in the other scenario you left the T-80's with their default loadout, which includes the Refleks, in which case they'll take shots at you with those at ranges up to 5km if visibility permits. I ran my scenario again, but this time allowed the default ammo loadout for the T-80U and it indeed engages at 5km, but only with Reflecks missiles. Until you get closer and then it switches over to the KE rounds.

I'm not seeing a problem with this really, as long as the user doesn't want to be engaged at 5km with T-80's either remove the Refleks missiles from those tanks, or set the missions visibility under 5km.

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You don't necessarily have to limit the visibility conditions, just change the fire control engagement range in the mission editor.

For my taste, I think enemy units are pretty accurate hitting on the move- if you want to see this, play Instant Action. I'll never get that good.

But this is an artificial setup, under 'normal' scenarios, I don't tend to get engaged at 5km by any tank, LOS distances and things like that are usually a limiting factor.

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Hmm, well there could be all kinds of reasons for that. I don't know if this is what figures in to the decision cycle, but ATGM fired from that distance still has quite a lot of time to close the distance, you could have moved behind a hill or put trees or something between you.

Or, is the T-80 making the decision to fire the load with what's ready in the cassette? After all, those are the rounds that are available without spending time loading the carousel during a fight.

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It is interesting that he's getting engaged with BM-42 at 5km, I'm not able to replicate this.

lavictoireestlavie, can you run your scenario again, get hit and/or killed at 4 to 5 km and look at the After Action Report, is it saying that your getting hit with BM-42? Or is it saying your getting hit by AT-11? If possible, can you save a screenshot in the map of the AAR that shows the range you're hit at and by what round?

I see the flash too when the T-80 fires at me at 5km, but the round is always an AT-11 in my case looking at my AAR.

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