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Hi gentlemen, do anybody has an ideas, how M1A1 can fire 10 rounds per minute, while T-72 - 6 only??? My uncle was the officer and he took part in invasion in Chechnya as a T-72 tank gunner. He checked SB and said that this is good simulation, but rate of fire is poor. He said that T-72 usual rate of fire is 8 per minute by experienced gunner. He considered also, that it is impossible to reload round by 6 second manually in abrams, even if your tank loader is Schwarzenegger))) So, how do you think, does rate of fire is true in SB? Thanks in advance!

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Hi gentlemen, do anybody has an ideas, how M1A1 can fire 10 rounds per minute, while T-72 - 6 only??? My uncle was the officer and he took part in invasion in Chechnya as a T-72 tank gunner. He checked SB and said that this is good simulation, but rate of fire is poor. He said that T-72 usual rate of fire is 8 per minute by experienced gunner. He considered also, that it is impossible to reload round by 6 second manually in abrams, even if your tank loader is Schwarzenegger))) So, how do you think, does rate of fire is true in SB? Thanks in advance!

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It's not like human loaders have to reach down to the floor and hoist a round up everytime, it's set up pretty ergonomically in Western tanks with one piece ammo.

Here's a video of an M1 doing a reload after firing in about 4 seconds.

About 5 seconds here:

This guy has been doing it all day and is obviously tired, but he still does it in about 5 seconds.

You can hear the guys are complaining with the trainee in the video below because he's taking too long to load the M1 at 6 seconds.

I'm seeing about 9 seconds average with the video of this T-80 autoloader.

LOL, ninja'd by Rotareng with one of the same videos.

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Hi gentlemen, do anybody has an ideas, how M1A1 can fire 10 rounds per minute, while T-72 - 6 only??? My uncle was the officer and he took part in invasion in Chechnya as a T-72 tank gunner. He checked SB and said that this is good simulation, but rate of fire is poor. He said that T-72 usual rate of fire is 8 per minute by experienced gunner. He considered also, that it is impossible to reload round by 6 second manually in abrams, even if your tank loader is Schwarzenegger))) So, how do you think, does rate of fire is true in SB? Thanks in advance!

well, T-72 manual says 8 rounds/min, so it could be right.

but reload speed on western tanks is realistic. those loaders in the videos are not even some of the fastest ones.

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It's not like human loaders have to reach down to the floor and hoist a round up everytime, it's set up pretty ergonomically in Western tanks with one piece ammo.

Here's a video of an M1 doing a reload after firing in about 4 seconds.

About 5 seconds here:

This guy has been doing it all day and is obviously tired, but he still does it in about 5 seconds.

You can hear the guys are complaining with the trainee in the video below because he's taking too long to load the M1 at 6 seconds.

I'm seeing about 9 seconds average with the video of this T-80 autoloader.

LOL, ninja'd by Rotareng with one of the same videos.

Minor nitpick:..while the first video shows a genuine 4 second load...the next 3 examples are 7-8 seconds...not 5 or 6.

I would say 7-8 rounds per minute is a realistic and sustainable rate of fire for human loaders under real life conditions, so not THAT much faster than an autoloader, ...that doesn't tire and has the same rate of fire whether static or moving.

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I was counting using the seconds counter in the youtube video from the moment just after the ready round was fired to when another was ready.

Also, it seems a lot of people that like the autoloader system seem to think it always and unerringly takes the exact same amount of time for a reload, forgetting that in cases where you switch rounds the magazine has to rotate into the correct position to access different round types. So if you go by what's below, an average time is probably around 8-10 seconds.

From our own SBWiki:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/T-72B

The T-72 auto-loader differs from the T-64 and T-80 basket auto-loader, in that it has both propellant and projectile stored horizontally. The carousel rotation is limited to 1 direction only. in normal operation, the cassette loader takes 6 seconds to load a round. However, it can take up to 15 seconds to load a round if the round desired is a 355 degree turn of the carousel away.

There have been rumors that the auto-loader has eaten the hands of gunners, and fed them into the main gun breech, but this is impossible. The gunner would have to put his hand into the breech, after pushing the gun load button. Most likely, the source of this urban legend goes back the the very first auto-loader models that were integrated into the T-62 as well as the unprotected hydraulic loading mechanism of the BMP-1 where a uniform could get snagged with moving parts and result in injuries.

In the case of an auto-loader failure, the TC has 2 manual cranks, one of which is attached to a bicycle chain, to rotate the carousel, and hoist the ammunition elevator. However, this is painstakingly slow, taking over 1 minute to complete the loading of a single round. Fortunately the auto-loader is very simple, and extremely reliable.

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Thank you for replies and videos, very interesting. Anyway, I think human loader speed will fall down some time and it is impossible to keep 6-8 sec rate long time. As for SB - current ratio is 10 sec (T-72) and 6 sec (M1A1), in accordance with my checking. How do you think, is it possible to make improvement of T-72 rate of fire to 8 rounds per minute (in accordance with T-72 manual, as Dejawolf mentioned) and simulation of loader fatigue in future update? Is it a good idea?

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Thank you for replies and videos, very interesting. Anyway, I think human loader speed will fall down some time and it is impossible to keep 6-8 sec rate long time. As for SB - current ratio is 10 sec (T-72) and 6 sec (M1A1), in accordance with my checking. How do you think, is it possible to make improvement of T-72 rate of fire to 8 rounds per minute (in accordance with T-72 manual, as Dejawolf mentioned) and simulation of loader fatigue in future update? Is it a good idea?

But that's OK, you shouldn't fire more then 2-3 round from one position anyway....then you have time to rest till the next BP is reached.

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Yeah, I don't know how tired you're really going to get, lifting 20 kg 40 times... it's not like you'll be at it ALL DAY, you're limited by the amount of ammunition you carry.

Besides that, it'd be a hell of a fight, for you to expend your entire ammunition load as fast as you could jam it in the breech.

That aside, I've loaded for M109 howitzers; the shell weighs twice as much, and have to be lifted from racks on the floor, rather than level with breech where you just have to swivel your seat to move them over. I know it took more than 20-30 rounds before I started appreciably slowing, so I can't see how the tank loaders would have such trouble with a much easier task

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Do they normally issue loaders with full body armor complete with crotch guard?

I found that sort of odd myself, but was just doing a quick video search to show loading speed examples.

On the topic of autoloaders, anyone know much about the Meggitt M1 autoloader?

https://www.meggittdefense.com/index.php/compact-autotoloader

The compact autoloader is an all-electric, fully automatic ammunition handling system designed for easy integration into the M1 weapon station. The magazine subsystem stores 34 ready rounds of 120 mm ammunition in the envelope of the M1 bustle. The transfer unit resides completely behind the recoil path of the cannon. Its operational swept volume does not encroach into any useable space within the turret, thus allowing the retention of the full four man crew.

The magazine design utilizes a double-row, closed-loop chain of canisters providing outstanding volumetric storage efficiency. Rounds are brought to a designated pick-off point which eliminates the requirement for the current large bustle blast doors in favor of a solid armored bulkhead featuring a small blast port.

Fratricide protection is provided for the 17 inner row canisters, and the existing pressure relief blow-off panels are retained, maintaining the M1's excellent survivability characteristics.

The transfer unit incorporates three degrees of freedom, all closed-loop control, operating in concert to extract, reorient, and load the selected round into the main gun at any weapon elevation between minus three degrees through plus ten degrees. The compact autoloader provides the crew with the ability to fire 12 rounds per minute, on the move, thereby taking maximum advantage of the advances in fire control technology and the digitized battlefield.

The compact autoloader features automatic ammunition inventory, high system reliability, graceful system degradation, and complete manual backup.

12 rpm, on the move, with enhanced protection and allowing the 4th man still in the turret.

Video of the earlier prototype starts at the 3:00 mark showing it working in the M1, the newer 12rpm version starts at about 3:30 here:

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I actually LIKE that design for an auto loader!

34 rounds, so you give up a total of two rounds if it's compared to the newer racks that hold 18 per side, but it looks like you can get through all 34 rounds in a hurry if you need to.

The loader can spend more time out the hatch spotting targets, he's there if you need to deal with a busted autoloader, etc etc etc

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The loader can spend more time out the hatch spotting targets, he's there if you need to deal with a busted autoloader, etc etc etc

What?

The loader with either Mark 1 eyeball or at best binos is going to spot targets better than the gunner with a x50 sight or the commander with his CITV?

Apart from short range stuff like an urban environment (where he is probably going to get shot before he see anything anyway) I doubt he is going to add much. ;)

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Well, if the tank had a system like the CROWS 2 for example:

95989914.jpg

Maybe the Loader could do duty working another thermal magnified site that had a .50cal or MK19 lol.

Okay, maybe the loader can't use the CROWS after looking for info on that, but apparently with the TUSK kit: http://defense-update.com/products/t/tusk.htm

The TUSK kit includes a bolt on armored gun shield attached to the M240 (7.62mm) external machine gun, which will help to protect the loader when he is in the open-hatch firing position. When "buttoned up" the loader will be able to use the weapon from inside, aiming it via a thermal sight which projects the target image into a pair of goggles.

He can use a thermal weapon sight while buttoned up in the tank.

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What?

The loader with either Mark 1 eyeball or at best binos is going to spot targets better than the gunner with a x50 sight or the commander with his CITV?

Apart from short range stuff like an urban environment (where he is probably going to get shot before he see anything anyway) I doubt he is going to add much. ;)

The GAS isn't better than the GPS, TIS, or CITV, but they still equip tanks with it! Besides, I'm sure that even in steel beasts you don't spend your entire time in the TC's seat with the hatch locked up, using your vision blocks or periscope to do all of your spotting?

Besides, if he doesn't have other useful equipment, he may very well be a useful spotter for things outside the tank. Watch the flanks, watch the rear, make sure that you don't get snuck up on while the TC and gunner are busy doing their thing.

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Yes because its a standby / alternate / secondary system.

You don’t want to be unable to engage targets just because the primary sight isn’t working so I’m not sure what that point relates too.

As for SB / as opposed to reality - yes I spend my time alternating between F7 and F5. I’m not posted as a Gunner so I don’t do his job for him.

But in any case I thought we were talking about Real Life (pretty sure the is no auto loader option for an M1 in SB)?

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I was talking about real life.

I know it would be more difficult for a guy sticking his head out the hatch with some binoculars to spot targets than it would for the gunner or the TC with their fancy thermal sights and gizmos, but he can still make a contribution towards spotting targets.

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I actually LIKE that design for an auto loader!

34 rounds, so you give up a total of two rounds if it's compared to the newer racks that hold 18 per side, but it looks like you can get through all 34 rounds in a hurry if you need to.

The loader can spend more time out the hatch spotting targets, he's there if you need to deal with a busted autoloader, etc etc etc

I imagine if this sort of thing where ever implemented there would be no loader at all. Perhaps then a change in turret design to better fit the 3 man crew+autoloader.

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Anyway, I think human loader speed will fall down some time and it is impossible to keep 6-8 sec rate long time.

We came to the conclusion that for the kind of scenarios that Steel Beasts simulates, a fatigue model would be a needless complication. I will readily admit that after the first 15 rounds have been fired and you need to move new rounds into the ready ammo rack, even well-trained people will break out a sweat, and if they were to return to the fight immediately afterwards to fire another full amount of ready ammo, and then to move munitions from the hull and other stowage places into the ready rack again, and then either return to the fight a third time or, more likely, to drive to a rearmament point where they would then grab a new batch of 30 rounds to store in all kinds of places inside the tank, a loader will probably have deserved a bit of rest.

The question is however if such a scenario is the best possible reference for typical combat situations. Assuming that this tank is representative for his entire platoon, this would mean that the whole platoon had fired about 100...120 rounds in rapid succession (the probably shortest possible time to do so is 7.5 minutes ...!). Assuming a rather low hit ratio of 80% that would represent about 90 targets, about an entire tank regiment or maybe a mech battalion with partially dismounted troops.

I have a hard time believing that

  1. a single tank platoon would successfully defeat such a mass of enemies
  2. that this tank platoon would be entirely on its own
  3. that such an enemy would perform a relentless assault even if half of his force would have been decimated in less than eighty seconds

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I'm seeing 12 rpm claimed, but not much other info for the Leclerc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX-56_Leclerc

The Leclerc autoloader allows a rate of fire of 12 shots per minute and holds 22 rounds of ready ammunition; it can accommodate up to six different types of ammunition at once, although like most autoloader systems it cannot change ammunition types once a round has been loaded.

Sort of fun to watch them all work differently to do the same job.

Leclerc info and autoloader here too.

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