Abrams Side Armor

[Red6]

Very nice but this doesn't mention anything about the armor on the abrams. So where do you get the statement "yes even the M1 uses Aluminum to at least "some" degree"

You're going to see a mix of alloys being used on most MBTs and APC/IFVs today.

Different alloys have different desirable or undesirable properties. Aluminum spalls little, is very light and compared to the protection per pound it is actually very good, it is very weather, and wear and tear resistant. Aluminum as used on APC/MBTs today isn't the cheapest material, but it's by far not the most expensive either, it has low magnetic properties and is conductive, it's heat resistant (by far not the best, but not horrible either - although a Molotov cocktail will cause it to melt - but it's far better than say a UHMWPE), it's something that can be welded, drilled, or shaped, and it can be mass produced using nationally available resources (i.e. no dependencies). It doesn't have crazy expansion/contraction coefficients, and it's rigid (the alloys used).

Just like the ammo bunker doors are a titanium alloy on the M1, because for that application that material has the best mix of properties, aluminum has it's role in modern armor design, i.e. wheels, inner armor plating where it acts as part of the spall protection... For example, while the Bradley was mocked in movies like "The Pentagon Wars," unlike most of it's peers, because it used that silly aluminum, you didn't get the spalling you had on near all IFVs of the time, and they were able to get a level of protection that would have made the vehicle much heavier had they used steel all the way. But it does make for a funny sight when an M2, M113, HMMWV etc melts away into a puddle.

Certain alloys of aluminum spall very little, but they still provide some ballistic protection (~2/3rd of RHA steel at 1/3rd the weight) and it won't go bad if it gets wet, nor will it rust, or degrade over the years like an aramid fiber pressed into resin will (which is used on the Bradley as well). While aluminum will melt ~450C (depends on alloy), if you heat up the inside of the crew compartment long enough for that to happen (It's not instantaneous), it's all a moot point anyhow for the crew. You can have hydraulic fluid splash on it, paint it, sand blast or step all over it, shock it through impacts, or expose it to sun and salt water, and you have no issues. Realize, these vehicle have to be built not only for today, but to last for the next 30+ years and that will include repair, upgrades and refurbishment as well, and aluminum as a material on the inside armor of a vehicle does very well, just like it does well for road wheels (despite melting - that's why you see the M1s laying on their bellies, they get lit up in a Molotov party usually if abandoned).

[Red6]

Not to mention that there are better materials than alluminium.

Besides this, photographs of damaged M1 with partially exposed side armor, suggests that M1 uses NERA type composite armor. This is further backed up by recent scientific research about "Burlington" program codeveloped by UK and later also USA. Documents that were declassified says that armor neither used ceramics, neither was passive, but was form of non explosive reactive armor. In such armor use of different types of armor steel and other metals like DU seems to be more reasonable than alluminium or ceramics.

Here are articles written by Polish historian who researches history of tanks and other AFV's. These articles are based on declassified British documents about special armor development in UK and also partially in USA during World War II and Cold War. It is only in Polish so use translator, there is also huge bibliography so you can research on your own through British archieves.

http://speedy.sh/dtW44/PHW-3.pdf

PAWEŁ PRZEŹDZIECKI - ZARYS HISTORII BRYTYJSKICH CZOŁGOWYCH PANCERZY SPECJALNYCH: OD PROSTYCH EKRANÓW DO UKŁADU GRODZIOWEGO (1942–1964) (Page 112 in Acrobat Reader)

http://speedy.sh/EPw99/PHW-4.pdf

PAWEŁ PRZEŹDZIECKI - ZARYS HISTORII BRYTYJSKICH PANCERZY SPECJALNYCH: OPRACOWANIE I ROZWÓJ „PANCERZA CHOBHAM” W LATACH 1964–1976 (Page 106 in Acrobat Reader)

Read King of the Killing Zone.

http://www.amazon.com/King-Killing-Zone-Kelly/dp/0393026485

http://www.amazon.com/King-Of-The-Killing-Zone/dp/0393332934

Not a new book, and no cool pictures, but it explains some things that you would benefit from in your discussions.

[Red6]

Newer: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a481408.pdf

Here's a simple online tool that can make the comparison: http://www.onlinemetals.com/calculator.cfm To make the comparison: 2.74 inches of steel RHA or 4.72 inches of (7075) aluminum have near identical ballistic protection.

The Aluminum will provide the same level of protection as the steel, stopping the round. But the weight is 68.65 pounds per square foot, while the steel plate weighs in at 112.06 pounds. If we penetrate the same plates with a more powerful round, the aluminum will spall less. See the advantage of using that weak, pathetic, and unmanly aluminum? It's not always about achieving the most protection in the least volume. It's also important to achieve a level of protection and stay under a weight threshold, or to avoid spall...

Aluminum:

Weight savings

Corrosion/oxidation properties

National manufacturing base

Nationally available elemental/base resources

Relatively easy to work with in production

High volume of production possible

Cost effective

Good/low spalling material with proper alloy selection or layering

Material that has a long life and is repairable, i.e. can be welded (patched) etc.

Electrically conductive

Low magnetic properties

Aluminum has its application: M1126(Stryker family), M2, M113, HMMWV class, yes even the M1 uses Aluminum to at least "some" degree.

Oh crap... I mentioned the Stryker.

Strike that, he uses steel armor, but even he uses aluminum in many non-armor parts.

[Maj.Hans]

Read King of the Killing Zone.

http://www.amazon.com/King-Killing-Zone-Kelly/dp/0393026485

http://www.amazon.com/King-Of-The-Killing-Zone/dp/0393332934

Not a new book, and no cool pictures, but it explains some things that you would benefit from in your discussions.

LOL @ the cover photo on that book...I remember that one from......Well, WAAAAYYY back...

I think I'd like to read that book, if only because it was from before GW1. Might be interesting to see how what they thought stacked up against the real performance.

[Red6]

LOL @ the cover photo on that book...I remember that one from......Well, WAAAAYYY back...

I think I'd like to read that book, if only because it was from before GW1. Might be interesting to see how what they thought stacked up against the real performance.

Sometimes people write something really profound, and over time things get obfuscated, but what they wrote is still factually correct regards certain technical aspects.

[Red6]

Aluminum IMHO is not only viable, but a great choice "under" the primary outer armor that isn't suseptable to a simple molotov, and used where ceramics are sandwiched between the outer armor and this inner skin since some of these ceramics or special alloys spall like mad.

From a cost, ease of fabrication, resistence to oxidation, weight to protection ratio (1/3 the weight at 2/3rds the protection in an oversimplified RHA comparison), resources nationally available, ability to modify or repair if damaged, low spall with the correct alloy... perspectives, aluminum is hardly this obselete material. It just needs used where it gives you the best it can, while not exposing this materials weaknesses (low melting point etc), and this is achieved in a layered armor where the lighter low spalling aluminum allow is used on the inside.

[Hedgehog]

Maybe there is no proof to support your statement. No believe you

Red Gummy Bear fillings sounds like a decent Spall lining material

[Tacbat]

And are dual purpose.

[Hedgehog]

And are dual purpose.

:thumbup:

[Lt DeFault]

2DHGySOLCbk

[Tjay]

Amazing how the 'entry wound' initially expands and then closes up again once the slug has penetrated the surface. Also noticeable that the 'exit wound' did not result in a large lump of the material becoming detached from the main body. Usual IMHO rider, of course.

[dejawolf]

another video, this time stopping a 22

[Tjay]

So is there any body armour actually constructed using this principle - i.e using a material with similar characteristics to Gummy Bear?

[Lt DeFault]

http://mitgel.com/

[Tjay]

Thanks Sean. Most interesting. Guess you could always tape a big gummy bear on the front just to make sure...