Invader ZIM Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 APFDS rounds are so much easier for me to understand. :icon_frown:Thanks for the clarifications on HEAT rounds guys, I'm definately in over my head when it comes to exactly how they work.So, wait, if you have an anti-tank RPG-7 round, does it require a different kind of armor/protection system than a main gun fired HEAT round?We've seen the slat-cage armor on vehicles, and in the sim now, so do those vehicles have improved protection against a main gun HEAT round vs. an RPG type HEAT round? Or do they really only work against the RPG type of round? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejawolf Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 APFDS rounds are so much easier for me to understand. :icon_frown:Thanks for the clarifications on HEAT rounds guys, I'm definately in over my head when it comes to exactly how they work. So, wait, if you have an anti-tank RPG-7 round, does it require a different kind of armor/protection system than a main gun fired HEAT round? We've seen the slat-cage armor on vehicles, and in the sim now, so do those vehicles have improved protection against a main gun HEAT round vs. an RPG type HEAT round? Or do they really only work against the RPG type of round? slat armour would be completely ineffective against most modern tank-fired heat rounds, since the slats are designed to crush the RPG-7 warhead. however tank-fired heat rounds have an impact sensor on it's shoulder so the slat armour would only set off the round. and if you're wondering, yes this is simulated in SB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invader ZIM Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Thanks Deja,I was under the mistaken assumption that slat armor was somehow also effective against the main gun rounds as well as RPG type munitions.Glad to know these differences are simulated, certainly explains the confusion I had when testing the main gun HEAT rounds against slat armor lol. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted January 29, 2014 Members Share Posted January 29, 2014 I was under the mistaken assumption that slat armor was somehow also effective against the main gun rounds as well as RPG type munitions.Try it out in SB Pro PE 3.0 with the Leo 2A5A2-DK. You'll find that the SLAT cage will block only a limited selection of RPG-7 rounds (and here, not even every type - and those that get blocked, only with a certain likelihood). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 I was under the mistaken assumption that slat armor was somehow also effective against the main gun rounds as well as RPG type munitions. Well have a chat to some of the US guys from OP VARIABLE last time out. There was a lot of chatter about being unable to do much to the "carpet tanks" and "post and rail" tanks (i.e. the Danish Leo2s with the cage armour and Barracuda netting). I think it rates a mention in the YouTube footage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLabor Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 The description of the jet from Darklabour is wrong. I stand corrected. Got to go back to the scientific publications. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj.Hans Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Well have a chat to some of the US guys from OP VARIABLE last time out.There was a lot of chatter about being unable to do much to the "carpet tanks" and "post and rail" tanks (i.e. the Danish Leo2s with the cage armour and Barracuda netting). I think it rates a mention in the YouTube footage. Why do I remember those things dieing just fine if you hit them with 829A3? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invader ZIM Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Thanks again everyone. And thanks Ssnake for the clarification on the RPG's, I didn't know slat cage only worked on certain types of rounds. *Note to self**** I am really starting to realize the false sense of security I had when using the Leo2A5A2DK *** After seeing this, if I was to go into a war zone, I'd want to put as much stuff on my vehicle to prevent penetration from anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted January 29, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2014 Well have a chat to some of the US guys from OP VARIABLE last time out.There was a lot of chatter about being unable to do much to the "carpet tanks" and "post and rail" tanks (i.e. the Danish Leo2s with the cage armour and Barracuda netting). I think it rates a mention in the YouTube footage. Hmm, well no, we have been dying just fine, one shot kills in just about every case. RPGs are iffy against the slat armor, but the time in the last mission where I was hit several times was from being shot laterally in the engine area. Careful we don't associate a mythical strength to the vehicle just because of other circumstances. All anyone has to do is load SB and shoot them with M829A3 and see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Well have a chat to some of the US guys from OP VARIABLE last time out. There was a lot of chatter about being unable to do much to the "carpet tanks" and "post and rail" tanks (i.e. the Danish Leo2s with the cage armour and Barracuda netting). I think it rates a mention in the YouTube footage. Why do I remember those things dieing just fine if you hit them with 829A3? and Hmm, well no, we have been dying just fine, one shot kills in just about every case. RPGs are iffy against the slat armor, but the time in the last mission where I was hit several times was from being shot laterally in the engine area. Careful we don't associate a mythical strength to the vehicle just because of other circumstances. All anyone has to do is load SB and shoot them with M829A3 and see. I don't know as I am not on the US side. The comment was based on listened to the audio track of the YouTube coverage. We on the Canadian side, didn't hear it in game so I wasn't able to ask them "what were the basis of the comments" (not that we had time for such a chat ) I just heard them and mentioned them here since they related to the bar / slat armour conversation. If their comments are wrong, then fine but the video is here: iFBPAGxYsWw 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted January 29, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) Right, well, it is easy to get frustrated when things aren't going well -- shot placement, luck, enemy not cooperating with plans, etc. We have to be careful not to base anything off that (I have done it myself at times). It is the usual knee jerk reaction to the side that might be getting rough handled at the moment. In any case, in SB the protection of the Leopard 2A5A2-DK "carpet Leo" *is identical* to the Leopard 2A5-DK and Leopard 2A5A1-DK, except that it has better protection against RPGs and HEAT (which isn't guaranteed as slat armor can be unreliable) and of course it has the thermal masking "carpet". Just trying to stop this notion in the cradle is all... Edited January 29, 2014 by Volcano typos 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Sure but I just said it was "chatter", not "authoritative chatter". I wasn't placing huge amounts of weight on it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj.Hans Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Ah, I thought you meant in general, not just HEAT rounds.IIRC both the Leo2A5 and 113A4 DK with the cage armor were nearly immune to the M830 HEAT round the few times I tried shooting them with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted January 29, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2014 Sure but I just said it was "chatter", not "authoritative chatter". I wasn't placing huge amounts of weight on it. True, that is why I am not concerned with the video. Like I said, I view any complaint as just typical frustration, knowing the protection levels of all of these tanks. It is only natural to get frustrated and that is the problem with these videos -- not many people go back and check the AAR; everyone usually assumes their shots are right on target for a kill and no damage occurred when in reality they might be off by millimeters and/or disabled the vehicle. The K kill is not everything. I have a good feeling that I was in the tank that "wouldn't die" but like I said the vehicle was rendered useless after the first hit and later finished off by infantry as it sat helpless. This is just something you don't glean from the execution phase. Oh well, back to the original discussion... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted January 29, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2014 Ah, I thought you meant in general, not just HEAT rounds.IIRC both the Leo2A5 and 113A4 DK with the cage armor were nearly immune to the M830 HEAT round the few times I tried shooting them with it.Well, if you are referring to me then it was a typo, I meant RPGs and HEAT yes. Not sure why someone would shoot HEAT at Leopard 2A5 though unless you are out of everything else? It certainly wouldn't be the go-to round for any modern western MBT that is sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogwa Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Well have a chat to some of the US guys from OP VARIABLE last time out.There was a lot of chatter about being unable to do much to the "carpet tanks" and "post and rail" tanks (i.e. the Danish Leo2s with the cage armour and Barracuda netting). I think it rates a mention in the YouTube footage. Well, we died quite normally. Usually with 1 shot. I would guess its just "heat of the moment" comments that arise when things aren't going your way. I would say much the opposite and hoped that maybe those tanks would survive at least 1 shot so I could get a return shot off. Maybe some folks were just lulled into thinking 50X zooms guarantees perfect shot placement every time. Don't some guys claim they kill at 7000 meters in 2 seconds with perfect accuracy or some such non sense? If you believe that, then when you shoot someone at 2500 meters and they don't die, it probably comes as a shock. The beta team tested all these vehicles and the developers researched these things quite thoroughly. Everything is on the up and up. I haven't seen the video, does it mention anyone using some the infantry water exploits? Somehow I doubt it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotareneg Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 AFAIK, the only comments about the slat armor during the OP4 mission was from the player running the infantry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iFBPAGxYsWw#t=718 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted January 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) AFAIK, the only comments about the slat armor during the OP4 mission was from the player running the infantry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iFBPAGxYsWw#t=718 Ah, yes, well it is a valid statement. Just FYI: slat armor has a certain chance of neutralizing the RPG, based on statistical data that we have from known sources and customers. So, at least now everyone knows -- it is not 100% reliable, and it is based on the odds. Of course if it is not neutralized then the slat armor will bleed off some of the explosive power (from stand off detonation) however, which might be enough to protect it from most RPGs (slat + side armor) but probably not RPG-29s. FWIW, the DK team views the difference between slat armor + carpet as a even trade for the far superior FLIR optics. Now the IFVs are another matter, we would love to trade the CV9035 for the M2 Bradley. Of course the Canadians have inferior stuff to both, but it is cheaper. What was this thread about again? In the Variable thread we are talking about beer and pies and in the M1 side armor thread the discussion is about Variable. Edited January 30, 2014 by Ssnake Opsec 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 One thing I noticed.The javelin when not in top attack mode Against the Leo-2 was not very effective.Even against its hull side armour. Are AI ATGM teams in OPV4 scored four hits only one tank Was destroyed the others were not even damaged. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacbat Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 In the Variable thread we are talking about beer and pies and in the M1 side armor thread the discussion is about Variable. Sounds about right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Sounds about right. Perhaps it will revert after this weekend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj.Hans Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 One thing I noticed.The javelin when not in top attack mode Against the Leo-2 was not very effective.Even against its hull side armour. Are AI ATGM teams in OPV4 scored four hits only one tank Was destroyed the others were not even damaged.Does the AI default to the top attack or direct attack mode? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusty Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Does the AI default to the top attack or direct attack mode?I think direct attack, which obviously is not ideal for engaging tanks :icon_frown: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted January 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 30, 2014 Try it out to be sure. I *think* the AI chooses based on different factors, such as range to target, but it is certainly supposed to default to top attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invader ZIM Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Volcano's right, unless the tanks are really close, the Javelin teams will always use top attack. Additionally, I'm guessing there's refined modelling of ATGM warheads (Tandem especially) etc. The Javelin and TOW for that matter isn't always the instant kill weapon it used to seem to be. Same goes for the TOW-2B. I've had instances where it took three top attack Javelin's to kill a T-80U, and other times where two TOW-2B's were required to finish the job. Going by the AAR's, and hundred's of missiles tested. I don't play online but enjoy watching the battles Rotareneg posts, if you guys are going online against each other and know the threat vehicles your facing, can you edit the loadouts for the infantry teams? When going against modern tanks like T-90's Leo 2A5's M1's etc. The standard LAW isn't going to do much. The standard rifle team needs at least the NLAW-STORM in it's inventory, coupled with a Javelin Team to be really effective against modern tanks. This gives them the Javelin, and a backup, rapid-fire opportunity to have a top-attack NLAW with almost 1km range, Same thing if going for the Russian side, the RPG-29 is the go to weapon with it's relatively long effective range, and tandem warhead. Some NLAW tactical firing goodness: For the U.S. infantry teams, I have to squint harder using the NLAW, but it's not too far from reality. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/sraw.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-172_SRAW http://www.army-technology.com/projects/predator_kestrel/ The Predator is a fire-and-forget weapon utilizing a pre-launch system where the gunner tracks the target three seconds before launch and the internal system measures target speed and direction and is used in conjunction with known missile flight performance to predict where the target will be when the missile is in a position to intercept. The missile's flight path overflies the target aim point. A dual laser and magnetic sensor detects the target and triggers the detonation of the warhead. The laser sensor locates the positions of the leading and trailing edges of the tank, and the magnetic sensor provides confirmation of the position of the tank. The missile also uses an inertial guidance unit that the weapon over the predicted intercept point, compensating for crosswind and launcher motion (the launcher may be mounted on or fired from a vehicle). For direct attacks the missile acts as an unguided, flattened trajectory, line-of-sight weapon and the warhead detonates on impact.[3] The FGM-172A features a downward-firing top attack warhead activated by a dual sensor fuse, and is intended for use as an anti-armor weapon. The Predator is a useful complement for Javelin since it has a significantly shorter minimum range, especially in direct attack mode where it can be fired window to window across a typical street. It is also much lighter than Javelin which makes carrying one or additional rounds easier where the situation warrants or allows a lighter and shorter range solution. Additionally, because it utilizes a different guidance mechanism it is more difficult to defeat both threats with a single defense. It can also be carried by every member of the platoon, giving infantry units increased firepower and survivability against enemy armor. This thing sounds almost exactly like the NLAW going by the info above, so I don't feel too bad using it They haven't run into heavy armor, so the warhead was backed off to the anti-bunker one instead of the Anti-tank. Edited January 30, 2014 by Invader ZIM 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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