Military Sims past and future

[Marko]

Started this thread on sim hq

Some very interesting comments

And some insights from people in a position to make a difference.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3911016/What_has_happend_to_the_milita#Post3911016

When I got my first computer.

The variety of military sims was fantastic nearly every major military platform was simulated Tanks helicopters

Planes ships. Ok the graphics by todays standard would be laughable but the game play missions manuals were Mostly to a pretty high standard There was a good cache of developers (most noteworthy was micropose)

Then year by year there were fewer and fewer new military sim titles released with the exception of games like Delta force Ghost recon although I don't think you could class them as military sims.

Was it the introduction of game consoles.

I think the fall of communism played a part. Peoples around the world lived with the Possibility of a world war Till communism collapsed, But the world has seen more conflict since it fell. so who knows.

There are still some decent company's out there but they a few in number. DCS and Esim

Are about the only two that stand out.

But I for one. Miss the variety Military sim fans use to have back in there heyday.

BRING BACK MICROPOSE.LoL

.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Marko

[Connaugh]

I played many of the Microprose games and they surely were good.

F-15 Strike Eagle:

Primitive CGA graphics. Stick enemy planes. Used the arrow keys to maneuver the plane which made flying difficult. First joystick would sometimes work.

GUNSHIP:

EGA based graphics. I put lots of hours in it.

GUNSHIP 2000:

VGA based graphics. You could fly with two other helicopters on missions.

RED STORM RISING:

You operated a Los Angeles Attack Submarine with missions similar to the action in Tom Clancy's novel. You spent most of your time in the tactical display watching the sonar contacts and maneuvering your submarine to fire wire-guided torpedoes and harpoon and tomahawk missiles.

and the ultimate game that warms our hearts:

M1 TANK PLATOON

You operated four tanks in a platoon the same way as in Steel Beasts. Other platoons could be used but not crewed. You could operate the gunner, driver, or commander positions.

Connaugh

[Lt DeFault]

One of my all time favorites:

[Floydii]

F117A was the first flight Sim I ever owned.

But I sank alot of hours into Harrier Assault. It was silky Smooth, had a dynamic campaign and had the privelidge of being banned in Australia due to protests from the Catholic Teachers Federation, on the grounds that the game is offensive to East Timorese. Except that you were flying to liberate the E.Timorese from the Indonesian forces there..

Oops.

It also came in a 640x480 version.

[TankHunter]

I came into it a little later than you guys did, but a few that I got endless hours out of were

Jane's Fighters Anthology

The great thing about it was that it would let you fly in the Korean War, or some near "future" conflict, or do something that was in the news at the time, like bomb Iraq or Yugoslavia IIRC. Jane's WWII fighters which came later was obviously more limited in scope, but still damn entertaining. The Jane's brand was great while it lasted.

Swat 2

Not military, but whats better than knocking down the door of a meth lab, or taking down some home grown nutters? The goodness of the series continued to the apparent end of it with Swat 4.

Close Combat

Storming the hedgerows in Normandy, assaulting St. Lo. Whats not to like? There was very little randomness and no control over what you would have for the next mission (something that was well and truly fixed in CC3) but it was entertaining. I think this was my first store "purchase" ever. I still remember seeing the box and saying to myself "wow, this looks cool."

Ok, the last two weren't really sims, but I was always more into tactics and the like. Thats what got me into SB1. I saw it on IGN and thought it looked like a 3D version of the Close Combat series. So I had to get my hands on it.

It really is sad that you pretty much can't find games like these anymore. Jane's brand died out and then was "reborn" as some rubbish action game. Swat also seems to have died out, though it has been replaced in some ways by ArmA. Close Combat has muddled on with the same graphics which are painfully out dated. Thankfully Combat Mission is filling the gap there.

[Captain_Thunder]

My first flight sim ever was Microsoft Fight Simulator 2.0 back in 1984.

1987

1988

and in 1989:

I still have them sitting in their boxes on my shelf.

[Scrapper_511]

My family had an Apple ][e and I used it primarily for gaming. Unfortunately I only got to play one simulator on it which was Microprose's F-15 Strike Eagle. I played it to death. Nevermind that several missions were Carrier based (to portray actual U.S. strike missions like Libya). I wish I had a C64 and got Gunship and M1TP. RIP Microprose.

Years later I finally got a 486DX2-66 (from ZEOS) and the rest is computer gaming history. If a combat simulator was rated highly by CGW or PCGamer, 9 out of 10 times I got it.

[Marko]

[

and the ultimate game that warms our hearts:

M1 TANK PLATOON

You operated four tanks in a platoon the same way as in Steel Beasts. Other platoons could be used but not crewed. You could operate the gunner, driver, or commander positions.

Connaugh

As basic as it was the AI was very good for its time.

Spent many a night all night playing M1

And the manual was superb

[Captain_Thunder]

Back then the ones to have were either M1 Tank Platoon by Microprose or TANK by Spectrum Holobyte, IIRC. I preferred M1TP myself on my DOS computer.

For the C64 crowd there was Steel Thunder by Accolade. Unfortunately my floppy disk of that game got corrupted after I had played the game but twice.

[Invader ZIM]

It's sad how sims used to be so good back then, I mean you really couldn't go wrong in the 90's, if you were interested in tanks, planes, ships, there was a good sim for you to enjoy. Today it's really shrunk down the sort of options you have if your into this stuff.

As far as future games, I know what I would enjoy.

I'd take this naval sim: Command: Modern Air/Naval operations

And plug it into AGI STK Free if I only knew how...

It seems like that kind of visualization would just lend itself to a naval simulation, I know I'd be all over that kind of tactical simulation, with some graphics that really made the battlespace come alive.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Invader ZIM

[Homer]

...Was it the introduction of game consoles.

I think the fall of communism played a part. Peoples around the world lived with the Possibility of a world war Till communism collapsed, But the world has seen more conflict since it fell. so who knows...

It wasn't communism because there are always "bad guys" to be found in the world, just take look at Hollywood movies. Most of the best mil sims came out after the USSR collapse.

Consoles definately, It is an alternate platform with a lot more upsides than downsides when compared to a PC. However, I think the trend began long mil sims lost its place on the top shelf. Consoles just added the nails to the coffin. I believe it was the march of technology that really killed mil sims. Examine what is in a mil sim and you'll see it's fairly basic: a few gauges/displays, static geometric models, and some rudimentary physics. This lends itself to what the early computers were capable of. As computers improved, it opened up whole new game genres and consumer demographics. Mil sims moved into its little niche and stayed there ever since.

For the C64 crowd there was Steel Thunder by Accolade. Unfortunately my floppy disk of that game got corrupted after I had played the game but twice.

Steel Thunder was awesome. One of the few games with a playable Bradley. Too bad it offered so few missions because I remember it got old relatively fast.

[Marko]

It wasn't communism because there are always "bad guys" to be found in the world, just take look at Hollywood movies. Most of the best mil sims came out after the USSR collapse.

Consoles definately, It is an alternate platform with a lot more upsides than downsides when compared to a PC. However, I think the trend began long mil sims lost its place on the top shelf. Consoles just added the nails to the coffin. I believe it was the march of technology that really killed mil sims. Examine what is in a mil sim and you'll see it's fairly basic: a few gauges/displays, static geometric models, and some rudimentary physics. This lends itself to what the early computers were capable of. As computers improved, it opened up whole new game genres and consumer demographics. Mil sims moved into its little niche and stayed there ever since.

Agreed what was called a sim in the ninety's would be considered

A light sim or even a game now.

I remember the first tank sim i owned microposes tank platoon.

I Hardly ever lost a mission and won every campaign I played in tank platoon

Then I loaded up SB. No problem I thought I am a reincarnation of patton. LoL

Man did I get a wake up call. It took me a little time to realise.

It wasn't the sims fault I keep getting my Arse kicked. You don't stand toe to toe with your Opfor. Even the mighty M1 is vulnerable. M1TP 2 was a game a good game but still a game SB Was a sim. (but there were still features I would hope to see in SB one day.)

Mostly a full campaign. I am under no illusion that's a major task in its self.

Its only when I started to research real world tactics and doctrine then joined a VU.

I started to win missions. Why because I started to use real world tactics

In a simulation.

We are very lucky in the SB community there are a lot of serving and ex Tank crew willing To spend the time To show us how its done. I don't think all real world tactics translate in to SB There are still some game type elements that are more effective

I am glad I stayed with it and did not return to M1 tank platoon.

[Toyguy]

However, I think the trend began long mil sims lost its place on the top shelf. Consoles just added the nails to the coffin. I believe it was the march of technology that really killed mil sims. Examine what is in a mil sim and you'll see it's fairly basic: a few gauges/displays, static geometric models, and some rudimentary physics. This lends itself to what the early computers were capable of. As computers improved, it opened up whole new game genres and consumer demographics. Mil sims moved into its little niche and stayed there ever since.

I think you're right about technology advancement being a key factor, but I think for the opposite reason. The increase in compute power allows for things like DCS A-10, Falcon 4, SB and VBS. In some cases, every switch, dial and system is modeled. Now look at what's popular - FPS games, Platformers, some RTS. The average player today does not want to read a several hundred page manual, or understand a Radar or Sonar system. They want to grab the biggest, most unrealistic gun they can find and run around blowing each other up. No tactics, no discipline, no dealing with orders, no real-world physics, etc. World of Tanks comes to mind.

Now take the average SB player - I'd guess a large number of us would, or already do, fully enjoy learning how to use the radar modes in Falcon, or how to use the FCS modes on multiple vehicles in SB. We like the fact that one bullet can end your whole mission in VBS - no multiple lives or the ability to absorb dozens of hits. We enjoy the complexity and realism and we're generally willing to pay for it. We are, however, a minority.

I think the same reasoning applies to the decline of board wargaming - another of my favorite things to do. Nobody will invest the time to learn the rules and play a game of War in Europe any longer. They'll get on the computer or console and play yet another iteration of Tetris or Doom. In simplistic terms, it seems to me to come down to twitch or think, and nowadays very few choose think.

Yes, I am old and cranky

[godzilla]

I stated PC gaming with a IBM 286 with DOS 3.0 if I remember correctly. Two of the first PC sims I purchased was Chuck Yeagers Air Combat and A-10 Tank Killer. After that I moved up to a 386 PC and that's when I really got into PC sims. Tornado, F-16 Falcon 3.0, Red Baron, M-1 Tank Platoon, Silent Service etc. In retrospect these sims were the cutting edge for their time and really pushing the boundaries for PC hardware and the users themselves (remember having to edit your .bat and .exec files and playing with himem and extended memory just to make a boot disk so your game would run :clin: ) so I don't see them as something less then todays offerings but more contemporaries of the hardware technology that was available for PC's at that time. It wasn't the greatest of times compared to todays PnP ease but it did teach me much about PC and how they work and it sure was gratifying and felt like a real accomplishment when you got a game to run on your PC back then.

[Marko]

I stated PC gaming with a IBM 286 with DOS 3.0 if I remember correctly. Two of the first PC sims I purchased was Chuck Yeagers Air Combat and A-10 Tank Killer. After that I moved up to a 386 PC and that's when I really got into PC sims. Tornado, F-16 Falcon 3.0, Red Baron, M-1 Tank Platoon, Silent Service etc. In retrospect these sims were the cutting edge for their time and really pushing the boundaries for PC hardware and the users themselves (remember having to edit your .bat and .exec files and playing with himem and extended memory just to make a boot disk so your game would run :clin: ) so I don't see them as something less then todays offerings but more contemporaries of the hardware technology that was available for PC's at that time. It wasn't the greatest of times compared to todays PnP ease but it did teach me much about PC and how they work and it sure was gratifying and felt like a real accomplishment when you got a game to run on your PC back then.

Very true I spent a very considerable amount of time and effort trying to get Novalogics

Iron fist running. I thought cool you can play on both sides when I eventually did

It was crap. Even though for its time it had some good feature . so yes you have a valid Point. for the most part loading a new game is a hundred times easier now.

But I thought that was due to direct X by Microsoft.

[Maj.Hans]

I've got a whole bunch of old sims sitting on the shelf here.

Falcon 3.0 (and the Hornet, MiG-29, and OFT addons), F-14 Fleet Defender from Microprose, Steel Thunder, Seawolf, Panzer Commander, Panzer Elite, most of the Close Combat series, Gunship! (The "!" is important), Aces of the Deep (and the expansion), and a whole bunch more.

I feel like "back in the day" they often times tried to compensate for the lack of graphical goodness by adding either realism features or other game-play features.

The graphics in F-14 Fleet Defender were absolutely horrible, by today's standards at least. But you'd get a nice mission briefing and map to help you understand your part in the operation, other aircraft would be active on their own separate missions, the F-14s systems were beautifully simulated, you worked as a pair with your wing-man, etc.

Nowadays all that seems to make it to stores are all first person shooters, and even those seem to be little more than a scripted movie that the player is involved in.

[Invader ZIM]

Nowadays all that seems to make it to stores are all first person shooters, and even those seem to be little more than a scripted movie that the player is involved in.

Man you got that right, it's bad enough a large animation industry used it as a joke in a film.

[Werewolf]

Game/Simulation devs will go where the money is. When the masses discovered PC games, military simulations were doomed to be relegated to the niche market they now fill.

Why?

A typical military sim requires that the player be capable of rational thought, situational awareness coupled with the ability to roll up multiple inputs into an analysis and resulting reaction/proaction - short and long term - to the extant environment.

Most people can't handle the long term piece all that well but are relatively adept at the immediate/short term requirement. That is a perfect skill set to attract gamers. Thus the proliferation of shooters, 4X games that reward quick thinking in the short term directly and long term only indirectly. Perfect for consoles.

And now we have the masses in consoles and not PC's and the devs being relatively rational human beings followed the money and built an industry that out revenues the movie industry.

Basic economics.

Aside: And for the masses - ooooohh pretty - see the shiny rock! seems to be more important than actual game play.

[dejawolf]

and then

[dejawolf]

actually, when i think about it...

one of the first sims i played.

[Captain_Thunder]

Ah, RB, one of my favorites.

Zork

"You are in a forest. To the west there is a path."

[hoggydog]

Some of the first games I ever bought were sims

F-16 Combat Pilot, Commodore 64

Steel Thunder, Commodore 64

Gunship 2000, Amiga

Team Yankee, Amiga

and although not a sim, the first game i ever played on a home computer was a tank game

Blasto, TI99/4a

[Rotareneg]

Why don't you kids try playing a real tank sim...

The first decent flight sim I remember playing was

. Also on the Amiga, I played Gunship, an obscure WWII air combat sim called

which had H2H via dial-up, and also fictional military sims like Armour-Geddon, Air Support, and Arctic Fox.

On the PC I've played (in no particular order): Jane's F/A-18, Flanker 2.5, Falcon 4.0: Allied Force, and various DCS modules (Blackshark, A-10C, P-51D.)

I found the original Steel Beasts in late 2012, and sure, I had to run it in VirtualBox and it had Doom-grade graphics, but it was fun! When I realized that I had spent quite a bit of money already on DCS which I has hardly playing anymore, SB Pro PE suddenly didn't seem so expensive any more.

[Tacbat]

I remember playing this on the Amega:

Edited February 23, 2014 by Tacbat

[Toyguy]

This was my first flight sim - FS1 on the TRS-80

You could hardly tell which way was up, but I played the hell out of it!