Battlesight engagement logic

[MDF]

9 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

 

4 minutes ago, DarkFib3r said:

 

In the M1A1, this does not appear to be the case. I'll verify tonight, but I recall trying this from the gunner's position and Backspace not switching to battlesight range.

 

That is correct.  Only the TC can enter battlesight range into the FCS in the M1.  In the Leo2s, the gunner can do it.  (Well, the M1 gunner can enter battlesight range using the manual range function in the FCS, but that kinda defeats the point with battlesight engagements.)

[Maj.Hans]

I've been told "Battlesight Tank!" a few times by the AI commander...

 

Whenever possible, in order to engage quickly, I use the laser for accurate range, dump lead so I don't need to worry about letting the gyros settle or maintaining a track, lead if required manually, FIRE!

 

 

[Eisenschwein]

Sorry, but I can´t get the reason for this Discussion!

In 1985 as I was a Tank Gunner it was the usual Technic to fire from the move and when we switch to EMES 15/18 all NCO said "This can be done by a trained Monkey".

 

So were is the Problem?

 

What do you want to do and why it do not work? Ask and I will tell you .....

[Maj.Hans]

Eisen, they're asking about "Battlesight" engagements.

 

For example in M1 Abrams when you push [Backspace] the fire control computer is set to a range of 1200 meters. 

This tells the AI gunner "Battlesight, Tank!" for example.

He should shoot immediately without using his laser range finder, and aim above or below to compensate for the range difference.

 

Instead the AI gunner uses the laser to get range, and then fires like a normal engagement.

 

The idea of "Battlesight" is that it makes the shot happen faster because there is no time spent to use the laser.  I don't know if this is really true.

[Eisenschwein]

BS is a "emergency Sight" if your LRF is damaged.

 

THAT is is the only reason to use BS with modern FCS. (OK there are 2 or 3 others, but that´s the main reason)

 

If you think there are other reasons, that is my Offer: Tell my the circumstances and I will try to tell you the answer ;-)

 

P.S.: Sorry lost that. A AI Gunner will ever try to use the best System that is available, so if LRF is not damaged he will use it....

 

P.P.S.: What do you think how long it takes to "Lase" ?

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Eisenschwein

[Maj.Hans]

8 hours ago, Eisenschwein said:

BS is a "emergency Sight" if your LRF is damaged.

 

THAT is is the only reason to use BS with modern FCS. (OK there are 2 or 3 others, but that´s the main reason)

 

If you think there are other reasons, that is my Offer: Tell my the circumstances and I will try to tell you the answer ;-)

 

P.S.: Sorry lost that. A AI Gunner will ever try to use the best System that is available, so if LRF is not damaged he will use it....

 

P.P.S.: What do you think how long it takes to "Lase" ?

 

 

In my opinion, it does not take long at all to lase.  I myself will ignore the "correct" method and use the laser when the computer tells me to do "battlesight".  Its better to take just a bit longer and hit than to hurry and miss...

 

I don't think it takes long at all to lase.  I think that the idea that "battlesight is faster" comes from the days when the gunner or commander had to manually use stadia lines or even an optical range finder.

[TSe419E]

The thing with battle sight is you have somehow found yourself at a range where an exact measurement of the range is unnecessary as the round you fire will hit the target anyway.  At least in the estimation of your TC.  And firing those few tenths, or hundredths, of a second faster because you don't lase may mean the difference between your vehicle surviving or your mission succeeding.

[Stormin Norman]

Battlesight is mainly used for degraded gunnery, primarily if the LRF is inoperative. It seems to be better modeled on the M1A2 Sep ingame, but not modeled on the older variants.

 

Also, depending on what ammo is indexed is what range will be displayed in the GPSE and entered in the computer. Default 1200m for Sabot and 900m for HEAT. The toggle switch isn't modeled either for adding or dropping range manually on the TC's control panel.

 

 

 

[TSe419E]

Battle sight for M68 was given as 1600 for sabo, 1100 for HEAT.  Was not told there was a change when starting to work with APFSDS rounds so I always assumed it was the same.

[Assassin 7]

On 3/4/2014 at 9:29 AM, Adam106 said:

I'm noticing either a problem or misunderstanding with the 'Enter Battlesight Range' TC function. The same thing happens on all the MBTs I've tried.

I hit the key and the battlesight range 1200m is entered into the FCS, but the gunner always lases and generates a new range before firing. My understanding is that battlesight is a quick engagement with the gunner firing without lazing. I'm using the 'battlesight' key only and not issuing a separate 'fire' command. Something seems odd. What is the correct sequence? Anyone else?

:c:

I take it you are playing as the Tank Commander, Battle sight and then grab your palm switch and engage that target from the Commander's override. SB is nice because you can map the stick palm to your joystick or a key that will act as if you are always holding the palms. Yes I have noticed this too when my AI Gunner shoots after a battlesight is applied. I normally just shoot from the Commander's sight with the override. Fight your tank and fight the enemy.

[Fat Otaku]

I'm noticing the same issue. Can we get a fix? I just checked FM 3-20 for the M1s, "Announcing “BATTLESIGHT” alerts the crew that a predetermined range and ammunition will be used", "The gunner will fire using the GPS or TIS and the predetermined battlesight range for the ammunition selected or the appropriate range line on the GAS." 

 

One interesting side note, the use of battlesight gunnery is indeed different from how it was described in the 1978 gunnery manual (FM 17-12) "Battlesight gunnery is the most rapid method of engaging an enemy target and is preferred when quick target engagement is required, and when the target is within battlesight range" whereas the FM 3-20 describes it as "is used when an accurate tank-to-target range cannot be determined, when the computer is inoperative, or in most surprise situations"

[TSe419E]

4 minutes ago, Fat Otaku said:

"Battlesight gunnery is the most rapid method of engaging an enemy target and is preferred when quick target engagement is required, and when the target is within battlesight range" ...  "is used when an accurate tank-to-target range cannot be determined, when the computer is inoperative, or in most surprise situations"

 

These are essentially the same statement just from different eras.  FM 17-12 was written before the LRF came into wide=spread use on tanks, FM 3-20 after.

[Fat Otaku]

13 minutes ago, TSe419E said:

 

These are essentially the same statement just from different eras.  FM 17-12 was written before the LRF came into wide=spread use on tanks, FM 3-20 after.

I believe the difference is that the emphasis on the rapidness is not there anymore in 3-20. And the paragraph after the definition is mainly focusing on applying it when forced to: "It is normally used when the fire control system is not fully operational, or when weather conditions (fog, rain) or enemy actions (use of smoke) prevent the gunner or TC from using the LRF".

 

In contrast, 17-12 emphasize on its rapidness much more "is preferred when quick target engagement is required, and when the target is within battlesight range."