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5 hours ago, Maj.Hans said:

That I think I agree upon, at least, as long as we're talking about the 105mm upgunned M-48s.  I'm not sure the 90mm was up to the job even by WW2 standards!

 

Uhm.........Well......

3oz7hd.jpg

LoL.

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On 2/8/2020 at 1:38 AM, Marko said:

But it was more then a match for T-55-62 IMO. 

 

On 2/12/2020 at 5:54 PM, Maj.Hans said:

That I think I agree upon, at least, as long as we're talking about the 105mm upgunned M-48s.  I'm not sure the 90mm was up to the job even by WW2 standards!

 

90 mm ammo didn't do well against Egyptian IS-3s and T-54/55s during the 1967 war. The IDF had good reasons to expedite the M48 upgrade process (engine + main gun).

During the 1973 war the upgunned M48A3 was the most common tank among the Israeli forces in the Egyptian front (about 400 vehicles), and it did very well against the T-54/55. The T-55 did had the night vision advantage though.

 

As for T-62s, the Israeli M48s didn't have many chances to engage them in 1973, since the Egyptian army had only two T-62 brigades and the course of the war lead the T-62s to face mostly Centurions and Shermans.

However, the M48 did get its fair share of battles with the T-62 during the 1982 war. After all active IDF armor formations were already busy with the PLO and with smaller Syrian forces, the reserve 90th armored division was tasked with assaulting the main Syrian armored formation in Lebanon, the 1st armored division in the Beqaa Valley. The M48 (like almost all IDF tanks) still had no night vision, but the 105 mm was better than ever with the new APFSDS. The added ERA was very helpful against Saggers and RPGs, but the post-penetration survivability remained as bad as it was in earlier conflicts.

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2 hours ago, Iarmor said:

90 mm ammo didn't do well against Egyptian IS-3s and T-54/55s during the 1967 war.

At the time material sciences weren't advanced enough to offer growth in penetration power other than by caliber inflation. Since the late 1970s however improvements in gun tube and projectile metallurgy have taken over (and sabot design know-how), putting the caliber growth to a rest that has lasted 50 years now. Maybe not forever. But today's 90mm munitions are substantially more powerful than those available in the late 1960s.

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2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

But today's 90mm munitions are substantially more powerful than those available in the late 1960s.

But how many of those are backwards compatible to legacy guns?  On one hand I know that Taiwan uses, and Denmark only recently stopped using, 90mm armed M41 Walker Bulldog tanks, but considering how lethargic even the 105mm M68/L7 can be against modern armor....

 

The smallest main gun I consider "adequate" for use against modern MBTs is probably the 105mm.  And even then, you need to be slinging M900 or DM63.  Makes me wonder if we'll ever see a new 105mm Sabot round developed to stretch the usefulness of that gun in it's modern roles.

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4 hours ago, Maj.Hans said:

But how many of those are backwards compatible to legacy guns? 

Yeah, well, not at all.


On one hand I know that Taiwan uses, and Denmark only recently stopped using, 90mm armed M41 Walker Bulldog tanks, but considering how lethargic even the 105mm M68/L7 can be against modern armor...

Clearly, if you have a legacy rifled gun some of the advantages of newer designs are simply not viable, like higher chamber pressure combined with more efficient muzzle brake designs supporting APFSDS rounds (think of the DF90).

 

The smallest main gun I consider "adequate" for use against modern MBTs is probably the 105mm.  And even then, you need to be slinging M900 or DM63.  Makes me wonder if we'll ever see a new 105mm Sabot round developed to stretch the usefulness of that gun in it's modern roles.

If modern MBTs are your focus, even 105mm is no longer adequate - period. But not every tank in every war that you encounter is modern. Quite the opposite, what is it that you see in Africa, Syria - old T-72s, T-62s, T-55s, and not even thoroughly modernized ones. But come without a large caliber gun, you better have your ATGMs ready or else even a T-55 can still ruin your day.

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8 hours ago, Ssnake said:

If modern MBTs are your focus, even 105mm is no longer adequate - period.

Perhaps my definition of 'modern' is a bit loose.  There seem to be plenty of 'modern' designs that aren't up to M1A2 SEP V3, Leo2A6M, and T-90AM3VBS or whatever letter of the month standard Russia is on now.

 

I certainly wouldn't design a modern MBT with anything less than a 120mm L/44.

 

But the 105mm / M900 combo is able to bust open a T-80 from the front if you're close enough and hit the right spot, at least in ProPE, last time I tried, and there's plenty of 'modern' designs out of China, India, Iran, etc with less armor than that!  I wouldn't go putting it on any new tank but I feel like its adequate for roles like mobile gun systems, centauro, what the DF90 should have had, etc.  Those aren't supposed to take on modern MBTs, but in the event they had to, at least they've got a chance to get lucky.

 

Makes me wonder what you can squeeze out of it with new ammo, but I'll admit that in sure if you did put the latest M829A3/E4 tech into it...I think its the last upgrade you'll see...

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On 2/12/2020 at 8:54 AM, Maj.Hans said:

That I think I agree upon, at least, as long as we're talking about the 105mm upgunned M-48s.  I'm not sure the 90mm was up to the job even by WW2 standards!

 

Uhm.........Well......

 

In Chad the French AML-90 destroyed a bunch of Libyan T-55 in the 80's. Israeli ones also took down some Egyptian T-54 / 55 (at least 13 confirmed) during the 6 day war and few Jordanian M-48. So the 90mm was not so bad against Russian early post WW2 tanks.

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Old times (M48G and KaJaPa, Marder 1A1 in the snow)

 

 

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Western boy scouts never had any thing like this

 

 

 

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...and I'm glad that we never militarized our society to that degree. Sure, it's tank themed and that's the only thing it has it going for it. But it's got to be seen in the whole context of preparing children's minds from Kindergarten age on for the inevitability of armed class struggle against the proto-fascist capitalist oppressors to the west. That's how much they hated and feared individual freedom.

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