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DemolitionMan
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Your opinion,

Would the Leo-1a4/5 still be a viable weapons platform. in the current conflict.

I believe it would, it still has a viable gun and fire control in the A5/a4 variant

But one has to take crew  training and maintenance in to consideration.

All this takes Time

For this reason i believe purchasing used T72s would be a better option for the Ukrainians
What do you guys think.
 

 

(Guys, just discussing the merits of using an old platform)

 

 

 

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The question is, where do you get those extra T-72s (not everybody who has them wants to donate them to Ukraine), and among those available for transfer, how many are serviceable?

According to some numbers, Ukraine started with 2,500 tanks, give or take a little. Allegedly 1,600 have been put out of action (how many can be repaired (and how soon), who knows), but Ukraine may have captured another 500 tanks or so ("tanks" might include IFVs and other armored special purpose vehicles). So it may still have up to 1,400 MBTs.

Realistically, Russia could mobilize 6,000 MBTs within under a year, of which currently about half are in the Ukrainian theater, and there about 500 have been captured, and maybe another 350 destroyed, so in practice Russia may currently have at least 2,150, possibly up to 2,500 MBTs ready.

 

Irrespective of the combat value you might attribute to Leopard 1s, 50 of them aren't going to change the big picture much. That should be kept in mind.

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14 hours ago, mpow66m said:

To bad they couldnt get some Jaguars.

Some marders would be beneficial as well.

But i think they scraped them.

 

The The Czech Republic, have donated some old T-72s the m variant from what i could make out and BMP1 IFVs.

Poland would probably be the Ukrainians best best for Quick delivery of armour they have a decent amount of former Soviet equipment 

In War stocks, whether or not. they would be prepared to weaken there own reserves is debatable.

Edited by Marko
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They sold 250 Marders to Greece instead of Ukr.

 

The Leopard 1 is an older and relatively light western MBT. The turret has been redesigned and provides more protection than the original versions, but the armour is barely adequate against light autocannon using modern ammunition. The L7 rifled gun is very accurate, and with modern ammunition remains a credible threat even against main battle tanks. The fire control system consists of the EMES-18, a modified leopard 2 sight made to fit inside the leopard 1, and incorporates a Thermal sight, dual axis stabilized head mirror, laser range finder, and dynamic lead. the commanders' PANO can be used for rapid range estimation of exposed targets even without a functional Laser Range Finder.----SB Wiki----

    

I dont see the Leo1s as being much better than the T72B3s.Theyre old and lacking in armor and firepower.Im no expert on Leos but feel free to correct me.Its nothing more than a big IFV on the modern battlefield.Nothing against the Leo its a fine MBT in later variants and upgrades.

Edited by mpow66m
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8 hours ago, mpow66m said:

They sold 250 Marders to Greece instead of Ukr.

 

The Leopard 1 is an older and relatively light western MBT. The turret has been redesigned and provides more protection than the original versions, but the armour is barely adequate against light autocannon using modern ammunition. The L7 rifled gun is very accurate, and with modern ammunition remains a credible threat even against main battle tanks. The fire control system consists of the EMES-18, a modified leopard 2 sight made to fit inside the leopard 1, and incorporates a Thermal sight, dual axis stabilized head mirror, laser range finder, and dynamic lead. the commanders' PANO can be used for rapid range estimation of exposed targets even without a functional Laser Range Finder.----SB Wiki----

    

I dont see the Leo1s as being much better than the T72B3s.Theyre old and lacking in armor and firepower.Im no expert on Leos but feel free to correct me.Its nothing more than a big IFV on the modern battlefield.Nothing against the Leo its a fine MBT in later variants and upgrades.

You are correct to a degree,

But in A4/5 version the fire control is still good enough in the defence, and the thermal is probably superior to the B3

As for firepower there are some very effective 105 rounds available.

The Israelis in particular have developed rounds capable out taking out a T-72B3

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A Leopard 1A5 "on par" with T-72B3 would be just splendid as that is effectively the best that Russia can field in numbers, right now. I would consider it at a disadvantage however. But so are the T-64s that Ukraine uses mostly, and not every battle situation has tanks fighting tanks in a duel. Leopards might serve a useful role as tank destroyers (that is, their employment doctrine should take into consideration their relatively weak armor protection). Under favorable conditions it can still be an asset.

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15 minutes ago, mpow66m said:

Can a 105mm round even penetrate the lowly T72B3?Also how do you think the M1(105mm)would do in a Ukr type situation.?

 

Depends where you are firing at.

 

The flanks are vulnerable to 25mm Bradley rounds.

 

If you are shooting at the frontal arc, you are doing it wrong and deserve to die.

 

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6 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

If you are shooting at the frontal arc, you are doing it wrong and deserve to die.

...if you are at liberty to decide. In war, not everbody has that luxury, particularly not all the time.

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The demand and discussion about the delivery of Leo1 tanks and ICV Marders is purely politically motivated and not fair. Since 2003/4 there aren't any Leo1 in the Bundeswehr. They were sold or scrapped. Thus, the 105mm ammunition became unnecessary and abolished or sold. The Leo1s currently still in Germany belong to other nations or the industry.

The ICV Marder has been in service since 1971. It's an old ICV with a weak 20mm cannon with no range finder.

Although it can fire MILAN and has thermal imaging, it is inferior to Russian BMPs and MPTs in terms of range, penetration and armor protection. The delivery would be purely symbolic with no real benefit.

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I'm confident that the Ukrainian armed forces can decide for themselves if Leopard 1s and Marders are going to promise a net benefit for their defense. If there are surplus vehicles available (check) and if they want them (check), I see little reason to deny them the request.

Either way, the age of the Marder as a vehicle concept in itself is hardly a convincing argument, given all the T-64s, BTRs, and BMP-1s driving around Ukraine. The armament is no longer great, but again, it might still serve well as an "APC+" with still decent protection and a bigger punch than a BTR.

The lack of rangefinder is not so much an issue IMO given the typical engagement ranges for which the Marder was built, and the rate of fire that it can bring to the fight. On the upside are reliability, ergonomics, the thermal imager.

 

The critical issue seems to be the available stock of 20mm ammunition. But that's also a question of production capacity with the various Rheinmetall plants, and frankly, I no longer trust the German government to be objective and forthcoming in their information policy when such matters are concerned. I mean, in these matters it's generally better to do rather than to talk, especially to talk in public. But the Germany chancellor has made so many factually incorrect statements lately, I'm not sure if that may still be chalked up as incompetence in public communications, or malice already.

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They will ,both Leo's and Mardar's will end up in less than a week as the S-300 did. I would recommend selling them and buying warm clothing for the upcoming winter. (about 40%) of the EU's energy comes from where?

 

1St Guards are waiting, they made it to  certain capitals

with much more before them in the recent history, it is possible to repeat this again as the Armour numbers are far less.

 

They are destroying the EU's 2nd largest army (with the help of the NATO) , it's time to cut , and run, rebuild the Wests armies back to past numbers in AFV's.

 

Russia has been producing (arms/wpns)for the west invasion from the collapse of the cold war, we in the west have depleted to a dangerous level in a month.

 

In Canada we have no anti armour now, and are in range of hypersonic wpns , which there is no defense. And there is no land bridge to send in the Truckers convoy (Honk-honk), we are screwed.

 

The Romanic belief that we could stop the Russians if they decide to move west is dead, anything we do now will not produce a desired outcome . We have young men who don't know which washrooms to use, safe spaces, and warning on Tide Pods not to eat, our currency's are failing while the Rube has gained on a new banking system.

 

Sending any material support now is hurting our countries more than the Z country, .....it is time to wake up.

 

It's spring, 

The bear is awake

Stop poking it

Hold your love  ones close

Maple trees are running

Children are wound up on maple candy

Our so called leaders are on.............................?

We are in the Clown world  :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 12Alfa
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i do not trust the ability of liberal western governments or western press to be transparent or objective any more than i trust the narrative that comes out of russia.

 

unnamed pentagon official claims that ukraine has more tanks on the ground than russia (these types of articles sound suspiciously one sided)

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/21/russia-ukraine-war-news-mariupol-live-updates/#link-JEOLQTKLSZC3BDAQS2KIKO64I4

 

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-now-more-tanks-ground-125929192.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

 

there is purely something sketchy about the way in which ukraine is going to received a batch of M113 APCs and suddenly that would change the situation around. i have my doubts that deliveries of self propelled artillery and a few AFVs are going to mean much when ukraine cannot put together a rescue effort to break the siege of mariupol, nor could ukraine defeat separatists in eastern ukraine which they have been fighting for several years already.

 

 

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Which long rod perpetrator are supplied with the LEO-1A5 ?

 

to track losses  RUSSIAN

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

TRACK UKRANIAN LOSSES...

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

 

BUT THIS DOESN'T reveal the existing inventory "in country"

Edited by P Lakowski
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