Mech Inf in multiplayer

[Tjay]

Apart from:

Malaya

Borneo

Vietnam

...

There is a whole world outside of Iraq and Afghanistan (where a whole bunch of the fighting happened/happens outside of "urban or semi-urban environments" anyway). .

Yes, I know that. And the current infantry works well in open country and even closely wooded environments. That aspect doesn't require work. What point are you trying to make?

[Tjay]

Actually I suspect it (Infantry modelling) would never be finished (just like the vehicle people want new stuff - e.g Hedge asking when ver 4.0 was coming out less than a month after 3.023 had hit the streets).

Yes, your portion might be able to be done quickly, but others want:

FPS shooter capability

Able to throw Grenades

Able to put in mouse holes and firing ports

Molotov Cocktails

Modelling different small arms

Modelling different MGs

Adding more support weapons

....

Then there's the raft of stuff after that "second tier" such as treating and extracting wounded, interacting with the civilians, KLE, etc.

By then of course the "Air Lobby" will be pushing their case too on the grounds of "what about me".

In the meantime the vehicle centric crowd will want Leo 2 A7, a crewable Marder, Puma, ...

It just keeps going.

OK, I retract 'for good', and replace it with 'for now'. The things you refer to above are minor issues compared with getting the path finding sorted out. But once that's done, if people are passionate about those issues, let them 'champion' them on this forum.

What are you 'championing' - other than the status quo?

[Gibsonm]

Yes, I know that. And the current infantry works well in open country and even closely wooded environments. That aspect doesn't require work. What point are you trying to make?

I'm saying that your point that:

But the introduction of multi-parties, civilians and other innovations in v3.0, suggested that the eSim were very sensibly keeping up with the times and adding counter-insurgency operations to the sims capabilities. As you know, this type of operation normally takes place in urban or semi-urban environments in which Mechanised Infantry play a significant role. You can't clear insurgents out of houses while being careful not to kill innocent civilians without putting boots on the ground.

Is not correct.

a. This type of operation often does not take place in urban or semi-urban environments, so "normally" is an exaggeration.

and

b. They are not environments in which Mechanised Infantry play a significant role.

If your point was valid (in terms of "b") we would have seen Mech Bns deployed to Northern Ireland during the troubles, instead of Paras, with FV432s driving up and down the streets.

All those places I quoted were examples of "counter-insurgency operations" which were not "normally" urban focused nor were/are they environments where Mechanised Infantry played a significant role.

e.g. What proportion of the Vietnam war as encompassed by the Tet Offensive (arguably the most urban focused operation) and did Mechanised Infantry play a significant role?

I'd say, very minor (I'm talking about the size and duration of the battles, not the impact on the will to fight back home) and no.

Yes Infantry plays a role and yes boots on the ground are important but they very often aren't mechanised.

If they were the MOD would have left FV432s and Warriors in Iraq and not used the initial snatch Rovers or bought Mastiff, Jackal, and all the other non APC / IFV kit for the later stages of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Most British units in Afghan doing counter-insurgency operations were leg Infantry deploying by CH-47 or in purpose built MRAP vehicles doing convoy escort, etc.

If you want to replicate the clearance of say Fallujah with Steel Beasts then sure it wont work well, but that's not the "norm" for counter-insurgency operations.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Gibsonm
Added Northern Ireland

[Tjay]

Yes Infantry plays a role and yes boots on the ground are important but they very often aren't mechanised.

But in SB they ARE. I know it is possible to included already dismounted infantry in missions, but the norm is for infantry to originate from IFVs - is it not? You are deliberately trying to muddy the waters here and introduce things outside the current debate.

No IFVs in Northern Ireland? Of course not - for practical and political reasons. Practical, because in Belfast patrolling was done directly out of local bases, and politically - well I'm sure you can work that out.

It all boils down to one simple question 'Do you consider the current infantry path finding performance IN URBAN AND SEMI URBAN ENVIRONMENTS satisfactory or not?'

[Tjay]

Most British units in Afghan doing counter-insurgency operations were leg Infantry deploying by CH-47 or in purpose built MRAP vehicles doing convoy escort, etc.

If you want to replicate the clearance of say Fallujah with Steel Beasts then sure it wont work well, but that's not the "norm" for counter-insurgency operations.

So you feel that soldiers deployed by helicopter or MRAP are FUNDAMENTALLY different to those deployed by Bradley or Warrior. Pray explain how this affects their performance and abliities oncd they get down to the close quarters stuff. Which, for the umpteenth time, is what this discussion is about.

[Gibsonm]

But in SB they ARE. I know it is possible to included already dismounted infantry in missions, but the norm is for infantry to originate from IFVs - is it not? You are deliberately trying to muddy the waters here and introduce things outside the current debate.

No, I'm not.

Your topic is about Mech Inf so its pretty central surely?

Is not "the norm" for Infantry to originate from IFVs. Sure its sexy because they turn up in a tracked vehicle and they have heaps of fire power, but it also means you as the Platoon commander start with say four vehicle icons and then go to twelve when the Infantry gets out, increasing your need to rely on the "flawed" AI pathing more than if you only had the four to worry about.

It is one way but not the only way.

What is wrong with you as a scenario creator using the Infantry Platoon unit (3 x Squads) to replicate a old school light Infantry unit.

Or have them turn up in trucks, park the trucks and do your patrolling on foot.

Or have them insert via helo and patrol into the town (OMG like real life).

By all means do "counter insurgency operations" but quite often the aim is to be less threatening to the locals and often that means leaving the Bradleys, Warrior or whatever at home.

Now if you are talking about just attacking the town and turn it into rubble then you are really doing counter insurgency operations / COIN / whatever you want to call it any more.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Gibsonm
typos

[Gibsonm]

So you feel that soldiers deployed by helicopter or MRAP are FUNDAMENTALLY different to those deployed by Bradley or Warrior. Pray explain how this affects their performance and abliities oncd they get down to the close quarters stuff. Which, for the umpteenth time, is what this discussion is about.

No, the discussion is about "Mech Inf in multiplayer" - your topic, not mine.

There is a world of difference "FUNDAMENTAL" if you like between employing Mech Inf and Leg Inf once "they get down to the close quarters stuff".

The soldiers are the same and have the same skills, but the Mech guys have access to a vast range of capabilities that the Heliborne, Motorised, MRAP, etc. guys, don't.

That's why we have different type of Infantry in most armies. Even the US who arguably could afford to put every grunt in a APC during the Cold War, didn't.

Mech Infantry have an order of magnitude more firepower (courtesy of the big metal boxes). Add say 4 x 25mm cannon, 4 x MGs, maybe 8 x TOW all firing under armour, all able to communicate, all able to react and manoeuvre under fire to an Infantry platoon and its about the same amount of firepower as a Leg Infantry Company.

Mech Inf can get their metal box to blow a hole in the wall or knock the gate/wall/fence down (you can do that in SB too) so they can get into a compound without taking the obvious route.

Mech Infantry can call on the metal boxes to come forward and resupply them with ammo and water during the fight and extract their wounded. Try to do the same thing in a canvas sided Land Rover and you wont get very far.

Mech Infantry can call on the metal boxes to come forward and redeploy X squad 200m that way, without them having to crawl there.

Its goes on and on.

[Tjay]

OK. The title of the thread IS Mech Inf in 3.023. Perhaps it should have been 'SB dismounted Infantry pathfing in urban and semi-urban environments' because that is the focus of the thread. Not RL ops in Northern Ireland, Malaya, Borneo, etc, etc. I've looked back through the previous posts and I sincerely believe that everyone but you understands that.

Out of respect for other members of this forum who - I am sure - do not want to read another Tjay vs Gibson spat - I will not be responding to any of your future posts in this thread.