Opinions for closest platform equivalents wanted

[Skybird03]

I am doing - for private use currently, with uncertain outlook on whether I will release it (first I must finish it, and then should ask the original author before going public) - a conversion of a scenario from a totally different strategy game.

The time is 1989, and the Soviet 11th GT division is crashing into the Westgerman 7th Panzer division. The map is located in the Weserbergland.

Some of that scenario's units can be replaced on a 1:1 basis with vehicles from SBP's library of platforms. However, some of that scenario's vehicles are not available in their specific variant in SBP. These I need to replace, and will consider their armour resistance to the other side's available weapons (I take ammo versions as close to the years 1989 as available) as well as their own punch they can deliver.

Certain is that there will be Leopard-2A4, Marder 1A3, and M109A3A on Geman side, and BMD-2, MTLB, BRDM-2 and BRDM-2AT on Soviet side.

I need close equivalents for these platforms, however:

T-80BV. I obviously need to chose between the T-80U and the T-72M (M1? I have ruled it out so far). Reading ordinary Wikipedia articles about their armour, I am undecided which of the two comes closer. Consider that half of the Germans force will be equipped with either Leopard-1 A1s or A5s, but that there will be Leopard-2 A4s as well. Which tank fits in better, the 80U or 72M ?

I need to replace the BTR-60PU and PB, with either the BTR-50PK, or the BTR-80. I think the BTR-80 is more appropriate even if it is a bit ahead in time, any objections?

Then there is the Leopard-1 A1. SBP has the A2 and the A5DK. I tend to go with the A2, but at the cost of it not being crewable. Maybe I want to go with the A5, because from German side the mission is incredibly tough anyway, and the Leopard-1s most likely get eaten by those T-80s or T-72 anyway. Should I better use the A5, therefore, or does it mean a disproportionate advantage over the A1?

And what also is on my mind, those Leo-1s and T-80s. Should I maybe consider to go with the tougher armoured T-80U, and to compensate for that give the Leopard-1A2 and the Leo-2s an ammo type that is slightly beyond the timeframe, for compensation?

Finally, I need to replace the M113GA1. Which version is closest to it? The A1, the A3, or the G3DK?

Thanks for any input.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Skybird03

[Captain_Colossus]

I would sooner go with T-64 than T-72M; it would retain the gun fired ATGM, and moreover, the physical resemblance is closer.

If you're able to do it, you could even use the T-72M4 (which sort of superficially resembles the T-80 with early ERA), provided you disable some of the modern fire control equipment and sensors, and you'd probably have to adjust the Blue ammunition loads in order to offset the better armor package of the T-72M4, but you might have to do something like that anyway if you went with the T-72M or T-64 because those aren't protected with ERA of any generation.

[Skybird03]

The T-64 is closer to the T-80BV, than the T-80U or T-72M...? I would not have thought that.

I have decided for the M113A1 meanwhile, the BTR-80, the Leopard-1A2 led by one vehicle of Leopard-1A5 as company commander, but that T-80BV thing gives me a headache.

The scenario I try to convert is from Flashpoint Campaigns, and I tried it three times now. The Leopard-1s always stand no chance against that Red steamroller, they do not penetrate enough even when hitting, and get eaten even over the distance. Only the Leopard-2A4s can survive it and bite back - and only when covering them with plenty of smoke and keeping them at distance.

I try to make a difference and give Blue a slightly better chance by giving the infantry more ATGMs. Did the Germans in 1989 use the TOW-2 already, or was it still the TOW-1?

[Captain_Colossus]

I think the T-80U combination armor is too strong, and in my view doesn't really resemble the T-80BV, and if you were going to err on the lower end with the T-72M, then I would sooner go with the T-64 both because of the missile ability and for visual comparison.

[dejawolf]

T-80B was more or less a new chassis with the T-64B turret on top.

T-80BV is faster than T-64B, and has reactive armour, but it's K-1 bricks which has no effect against KE.

[Skybird03]

And you mean the Leopards then need a less-capable ammo when I go with the T-64, just asking so that I get that correct, yes? Lets say one generation/version earlier than the ammo that is closest to 1989 as an availability date?

I think that should not make a difference anyway if the Leos fire at the BTRs, So I will stay with the BTR-80.

[Skybird03]

Speed may be an essential thing in that scenario, it is a race for the bridges at Hameln, simply trying to overroll the scattered German defenders.

Maybe I use a mix of T-64 and T-72M.

edit:

just looked up their speeds at Wikipedia (I know I know, its only Wikipedia...)

T80 lists with 70 km/h , T-64 lists with 65 on road and 75 as combat speed, and T-72 list with 60 km/h.

It is my understanding that the T-80 should be the fastest, it was the first tank with a gas turbine and is said to have a very good forward terrain mobility even today.

I need to have a simple test scenario, and all three tanks doing a race, observing it, to see how they do in SBP.

Thank you both for your input!

[Skybird03]

Maybe interesting for others to know it somewhat "precisely":

I did a 2km race on a plain meadow, straight. The T-64B, the T-72M, and the T-80U. Move order was "Assault".

1. T-80U

2. T-72M with ~67% of the distance run

3. T-64B with ~63% of the distance run

So the difference between the T-64 and T-72 can be ignored, it really means nothing, but the sprint run by the T-80U - that is an impressive lead, and definitely is of tactical relevance.

Edit:

Leo-1A2, Leo-1A5 and Leo-2A4 added. These results:

1. T-80U

2. Leo-2A4 with ~94% of the distance run

3./4. Leo-1A2 and Leo-A5 with ~72% of the distance run (both tanks are exactly of same speed)

5. T-72M with ~67% of the distance run

6. T-64B with ~63% of the distance run

[Skybird03]

I now found info suggesting that while the T-64 could fire on the move, it was not able to fire on the move efficiently, for real effect.

Well. There I am, as wise as before.

The speed of the T-80 I cannot work around, it seems. It outraces even the Leo-2.

I will use a mix of T-64B and T-72M. And will use Leopard ammo slightly less optimal for the time than possible. It seems this is as close as I can get.

[Gibsonm]

The speed of the T-80 I cannot work around, it seems. It outraces even the Leo-2.

If Red is going to be scripted in the scenario why not just adjust the speed of any assault routes from "Top Speed" to "Fast" that would likely bring the T-80's performance back to the pack?

[Hermes]

Hi Skybird03,

11th GT-Division had T-80s at the end of the cold war-era accdg to my sources... an article under http://www.panzerregiment4.de/wordpress/?p=135

NVA had T-72 or T-55.

NATO expected the 11th division in CENTAG-area following 8th shock army as part of 1th guards tank army.

So the 7th would rather face 3rd shock army, please vide:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=324801

For the equipment of 7th Panzer Division I do recommend the fllwg links

http://bw-duelmen.de/bw-im-muensterland/7-panzerdivision/

http://www.microarmormayhem.com/BW_OOB.pdf

www.panzer-modell.de --> Under "Referenzen" you can see when the tank bataillons had received which M48 or Leo.

Nice day

[Skybird03]

If Red is going to be scripted in the scenario why not just adjust the speed of any assault routes from "Top Speed" to "Fast" that would likely bring the T-80's performance back to the pack?

As I said, I'm doing a scenariuo conversion, and in the original game the Russian tank avalanche indeed RACES down the Germans if they dare to defend with anything east of river Weser, east of Hameln - they simply get run into the ground. Wanting to have the T-80s speed in that converison therefore makes sense - but the U-verison depicted in SBP is far too heavily armoured for the Leopard-1s and Marder's Milans - they would not just get run into the ground, they would even gets alightered at long distance without having many teeth to sink into the T-80U on their own.

A guns duel with the river Weser between both sides also is no option - in the infight, the T-80U again is superior both in guns and armour. The Leopard-1 using static defences against an avalanche of T-80s, is suicide, I assume. And in mobile defence, it gets outrun. Plus: the Germans fight against overwhelming odds, by numbers. Even mere delaying action is tough job to do.

The Leo2A4 arrives only with massive delay in that scenario.

Hermes,

thanks, for the links, but as I said: I do an as-close-as-possible 1:1 scenario conversion from Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm. I base on their scenario design, and do not check their historic correctness. The overall framework in that game however reflects real circumstances from that era. The mission briefing even mentions something like your mentioned expectations for what Soviet division would show up where - and why there is this slight surprise by having the 11th GT relocated more Northern.

[Hedgehog]

The M113A2 has the option for an MG3.

[Skybird03]

I just have obtained formal permission by them. Just mentioning it in case somebody at eSim already raises his eyebrow over this thread.

[Captain_Colossus]

A guns duel with the river Weser between both sides also is no option - in the infight, the T-80U again is superior both in guns and armour. The Leopard-1 using static defences against an avalanche of T-80s, is suicide, I assume. And in mobile defence, it gets outrun.

That's what I would predict, since I've seen T-64s consistently roll up Leo Is at least during daylight hours. During low visibility, during dusk or early dawn, then the results start to swing more in the favor of the Leopards. But if you went with the T-80U, that's way overkill, if you ask me. I would concede the speed thing to get better results with the T-64. One way or another, something would have to go. Correlating Steel Beasts 1:1 to your experience in another game (or even to historical battles) even if you had the exact same equipment is usually not going to happen that way.