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Eyeball Recce


VegasGeorge

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I was just re-reading Otto Carius's book, Tigers In The Mud, and I noticed that he repeatedly mentions the importance of taking a personal look at intended battlefield terrain, and would routinely hold his tank back behind a rise, and go forward on foot (or Kuble) to check enemy positions on the other side. I'm just wondering if any of you guys do that in SB? If so, how do you accomplish it?

Edited by VegasGeorge
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I was just re-reding Otto Carius's book, Tigers In The Mud, and I noticed that he repeatedly mentions the importance of taking a personal look at intended battlefield terrain, and would routinely hold his tank back behind a rise, and go forward on foot to check enemy positions on the other side. I'm just wondering if any of you guys do that in SB? If so, how do you accomplish it?

Dissmounting the TC is currently not possible.

But you can go to "F1" view of the tankcommander(TC) when behind a ridge/rise and slowly drive forward to get look without xposing your tank.

With an IFV/APC you can dissmount a infantry section do to the recce.

What you can not, and likely never will be able to do, is to check the ground(will it carry my vehicle or will I get stuck?) One of the major factors/reasons for on foot recce!!

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I am CONSTANTLY dismounting my recon and mechanized infantry to get eyes on the ground. It's the best way, although the slowest, to get an accurate feel of the land and how to spot enemies with a lesser chance of exposure to my own vehicles. Even though infantry does not possess IR or thermal vision devices, they can still spot on the map better than using our own eyes on the monitor. Yes, infantry dies and dies often, but they realistically account for 80% of the military casualties in battle. They do best on their feet than crammed up in a vehicle to be turned into tank gun fodder.

In real terms, the TC or the platoon leader (usually a lieutenant) goes ground with the dismounts. They don't do that anymore, usually relying on the dismount squad leader for reports and such. In my experience, the only time I would see my platoon sergeant, platoon leader or even the company captain was when everything was over...combat wise.

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I was just re-reding Otto Carius's book, Tigers In The Mud, and I noticed that he repeatedly mentions the importance of taking a personal look at intended battlefield terrain, and would routinely hold his tank back behind a rise, and go forward on foot to check enemy positions on the other side. I'm just wondering if any of you guys do that in SB? If so, how do you accomplish it?

You have the world view In the planning phase to check out the lay of the land. If You have the scenario for planning You can test the ground with different vehicles to check for mobility. Other than the Actual enemy there should be no doubt as to what is on the other side of a hill or obstacle during the battle.

F8 sort of simulates getting out of the vehicle to run up 50 meters or so to peek over a hill. As well as using whatever other friendly assets are in the area to get eyes ahead.

All this works better when defending and the ground around You may not change much, and likely enemy approaches are known. When attacking sometimes time limitations, and distance to Obj's can force recon steps to be skipped to keep on schedule.

Edited by Brun
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Even though infantry does not possess IR or thermal vision devices, they can still spot on the map better than using our own eyes on the monitor.

They can have NVGs - if you set it up that way in the editor.

If its a FO party then they have TI.

In real terms, ..... They don't do that anymore. ...

In US terms. Beware of generalisations. :)

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I'm just wondering if any of you guys do that in SB? If so, how do you accomplish it?

While its true that you can't get off (and I can assure you that despite RedWardancer's comments, which appear to be US centric, many other armies still do get off their vehicle to check), you can still have a good proxy.

As Brun mentioned you can do a terrain "fly through" in the planning phase (although as Grenny mentioned you don't get a feel for the ground).

During execution you can use F8 and indeed you can still do the whole Turret down, hull down approach to a position by:

1. Have the Crew Commander stand on top of the tank - hit Q a few times

so they are as high as possible and use your binos.

2. Scan the ground. This emulates Turret Down / Fully Concealed.

3. Come down one level (hit Z once), crawl the vehicle forward and scan again.

4. Come down another level (hit Z again), crawl the vehicle forward and scan again. You should be approaching Hull Down now.

5. Now jump to the Gunner's view and crawl forward again until they can see.

6. Now jump to the Driver's view and confirm that they can't see anything - if they can you are now Track Up / Full Exposed and need to reverse until he can't see but the gunner can.

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Well IRL you also have the option to stand on top of your hatch and order the driver to crawl a wee bit forward...gives you another 50cm of observation height.

Not modeled in SB and also not recomenced by the "elf'n'safety" guy(screw him).

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Well IRL you also have the option to stand on top of your hatch and order the driver to crawl a wee bit forward...gives you another 50cm of observation height.

Not modeled in SB and also not recomenced by the "elf'n'safety" guy(screw him).

Yep - that's my step 1 above.

I think the WHS guy would have a bigger issue with the sabot hole in the turret and the ex crew than a skinned knee. :)

Besides the Driver knows full well that if he doesn't do it gradually and smothly that he will be on my special list for a while.

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You have the world view In the planning phase to check out the lay of the land.

Yes. I usually start by setting the view near one of my AFVs. Then, in the 3D view, I set the height of the camera to match the height of the optics of the vehicle (usually the gunner's, which are sometimes lower, so I can be sure he and the TC will both have a clear view). Now, I'm free to move the camera around and see just what the crew will be able to see from position "X".

IIRC, the LOS tool works in conjunction with the LOS height slider so that, once the height is set, a spot can be checked for a clear view of the target area. And, perhaps even more useful, it can be used to see what positions are not visible from probable or known enemy locations.

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IIRC, the LOS tool works in conjunction with the LOS height slider so that, once the height is set, a spot can be checked for a clear view of the target area. And, perhaps even more useful, it can be used to see what positions are not visible from probable or known enemy locations.

Yes it does.

I also like doing a "reverse LOS" where you pick a spot, say in the midst of your engagement area or perhaps a defile/choke point and measure it "from" there (as opposed to "to" there).

Often you'll find less obvious spots that will do what you want because you get a 360 degree / 6400 mil view of what can see / shoot at a given point.

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In real terms ... They don't do that anymore...

Who doesn't do that anymore? I realize I retired a few years ago so things may have changed some, but we used to do this. There was at least a leaders recon whenever possible.

Mog

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I suspect UGV/UAV's will become so prolific in the near future the old mark one eye ball

Will not be as important as it is now for the recon role

We already have both modelled in SB already.

I have never seen a UGV used in a MP Game. it is a really useful tool and can be carried in A number of Vehicles. I know the US military already use small glider type UAV's for special Forces. I would even speculate they will be issued to tank company commanders in the near Future there a hell of a lot cheaper then risking a recon type vehicle.

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I suspect UGV/UAV's will become so prolific in the near future the old mark one eye ball

Will not be as important as it is now for the recon role

We already have both modelled in SB already.

I have never seen a UGV used in a MP Game. it is a really useful tool and can be carried in A number of Vehicles. I know the US military already use small glider type UAV's for special Forces. I would even speculate they will be issued to tank company commanders in the near Future there a hell of a lot cheaper then risking a recon type vehicle.

We used both in the FINLAND campaign.

I personaly used the small UAV quiete succesfully.

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We used both in the FINLAND campaign.

I personaly used the small UAV quiete succesfully.

Any current/or ex. soldiers on this forum ever used real UAV/UGV on Military Exercises etc. Or are in the process of training to use them. If so did you think they were more or less Effective then sending a recon vehicle/squad to retrieve intelligence.

One of the biggest lessons I have learned from playing SB. Its all about the recon I always new how important recon was. but not to the degree I know now.

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Any current/or ex. soldiers on this forum ever used real UAV/UGV on Military Exercises etc. Or are in the process of training to use them. If so did you think they were more or less Effective then sending a recon vehicle/squad to retrieve intelligence.

One of the biggest lessons I have learned from playing SB. Its all about the recon I always new how important recon was. but not to the degree I know now.

Typical answer: I depends on...

You have to weigh in many factors: I surveilance the ONLY thing you want?

How much stealth you want to use?

For how long do you need info?

What kind of info do you want?

etc etc etc

Drones are in nearly all of the cases a addition, not a replacement for othe recon assets.

They provide a bird-eye view and a replaceable :-)

But they are very vulnerable to EW and AD.

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Yes I've used both UAS (new term for UAV) and UGV.

The UAS were at the strategic (flown by someone in another country), operational (flown by people from a dedicated unit) and tactical levels (thrown out the back of a vehicle by some Infantry).

At the top two levels they are another ISR asset providing feeds.

They do not replace ground reconnaissance assets, they supplement it.

For example they do not have the endurance to remain in the same place for extended periods (i.e. several days) to establish pattern of life, etc.

Reconnaissance comes in several layers all of which help build up the picture.

They serve different customers but eventually you need the Tank Sqn / CT OC (or Tp Leader / PL commander) to do his own personal recce because it answers his questions and informs his plan.

The ISR feed from the strategic UAS flown for the three star doesn't.

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