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T-14 ARMATA new russian tank

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I mean this tank:

armata-tracked-armored-platform.si.jpg

Are you sure this was meant to be a fire support vehicle?

Ah, forget those pics- they are just an artists fantasy inspired by presentation model of FSV shown by russian TV:

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1430294964_1.jpg.a0b9a7ef7f767b9f6f59fab

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Oh ok.:redface:

I thought so too in the beginning because it looked too much futuristic but then more and more pictures of this certain vehicle appeared and so I thought this was real. Also I thought that the 30mm cannon was a little bit too much but then I remembered that there is a BMP-3.:)

I guess rumours spread fast - especially on the internet. Sorry that I contributed to this.

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Ah, forget those pics- they are just an artists fantasy inspired by presentation model of FSV shown by russian TV:

Aesthetics mean nothing in combat.

Firepower mobility and armour are what count for tanks, and I would wager the Amarta

Has a good mix of them.

As for the above artist impression, I new for quite a while that would not be the final Armata configuration. Even the first pics released of the Amarta covered by the tarps you could tell It looked nothing like the above Image.

They say beauty is the eye of the beholder.

But I will say again from a Aersthetic point of view (The Amarta is a Ugly duckling IMO)

Maybe in the following years it will grow on me like Some super cars I could name.

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imagesK112PCND.jpg.71eef6173f7a8df0e25e6

0.jpg.cd13577da9a582b21a46679b26231911.j

imagesK112PCND.jpg.71eef6173f7a8df0e25e6

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Nothing new (except for the crew of two bit, see below) but some more open source:

RUSSIA - NEW TANKS, SHOWN FULLY UNVEILED, PREPARE FOR MILITARY PARADE (MAY 05/RT)

RUSSIA TODAY -- Russia's new Armata tanks has appeared fully unveiled in public for the first time, driving down a street in Moscow on its way to Red Square, reports Russia's RT news channel.

The tanks were rehearsing for a military parade later this week

Previous images released by the Defense Ministry showed the turret of the tanks covered with fabric.

The Armata platform can be used as a tank, APC, self-propelled artillery or missile launcher. The fully computerized tank requires just a crew of two.

The tanks will take part in the May 9 parade celebrating the 70th anniversary of the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany in World War II.

The fully computerized tank requires just a crew of two.

Not having a gunner might be an error, or if correct I suspect it will reduce its combat efficiency.

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Not sure how accurate this diagram is

It shows the vehicle has a crew of three but I think it can still be combat effective with a Crew of two.

CBl15O6WMAA5eUx.jpg.ac7b772e19775b1c4a88

CBl15O6WMAA5eUx.jpg.ac7b772e19775b1c4a88

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In addition to the stuff that sensors and automation can't do that Tacbat mentioned, just ask the French how good combining the Commander and Gunner roles was in 1940.

Somebody has to speend all their time maintaining SA, prioiritising targets, talking on the radio, navigating, etc. so that somebody else can spend all/most of their time shooting at those targets.

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In addition to the stuff that sensors and automation can't do that Tacbat mentioned, just ask the French how good combining the Commander and Gunner roles was in 1940.

Somebody has to speend all their time maintaining SA, prioiritising targets, talking on the radio, navigating, etc. so that somebody else can spend all/most of their time shooting at those targets.

I would agree with your comments Gibsomn.

Personally I would rather have a extra crew member.

I think the concept is similar to the S-tank if a crew member is wounded or killed

The remaining crew can fight there way out of the battle.

The Russians are notorious for over exaggerating there new equipment's capability

And some bold claims have been made already about the amarta's capability's such as being Able to engage targets up to 7000m away. I will take these comments with a pinch of salt till I see a video of them doing just that hitting a target at 7000m

But I doubt we will get any more info till the T-14 hits the export market.

Link to a article from the BBC about Russia's new toys.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32588868

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I don't want to second guess something I don't know anything about, but for what it's worth, the Russians aren't novice tank builders and I tend to think they have at least considered the design questions. I have to assume they are proceeding based on their best conclusions for what they perceive they need. At the very least, thermal sensors as a standard package is a necessary upgrade, probably the biggest weakness of previous designs that didn't come with them standard.

I wonder why they keep going with a three man crew- this may have made sense in the Soviet era, since a smaller crew means they could field more tanks with with the same amount of troops as well as keep the vehicle profiles smaller. But in this era, they seem to still compromise with this when they seem prepared to field more expensive, more professional, but smaller forces. Again, though, there's probably something they know that I don't. It could be a form of inertia, it could be their experience has shown that it is unnecessary, or they could have solved some problem with three. In time, the answer will probably relate to one of these options.

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I wonder why they keep going with a three man crew ...

Well if you go with an auto loader then you pretty much get rid of the human loader. ;)

If they retained the loader then the crew capsule wouldn't work because one person, the loader, wouldn't be in it - they'd be loading the gun. :)

That then leads to how does the loader load the gun which takes you back to a more full sized turret and you end up building an almost normal sized turret for one person (since the loader needs the space ot actually load the gun). So you might as well put the gunner and commander back in there ... :)

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What's implied in my statement if it wasn't explicit already is why continue to go with the autoloader and three man crew when that was an apparent Soviet requirement- it fit within certain thinking in the Soviet era. No longer the Soviet era, it's either a form inertia, or they genuinely have found the three man crew to a better solution.

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...just ask the French how good combining the Commander and Gunner roles was in 1940.

The T-34 was the same until they upgraded to the 85mm. The 3rd man in the KV-1 turret from the same period was a rear MG, not ideally positioned as a loader.

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What's implied in my statement if it wasn't explicit already is why continue to go with the autoloader and three man crew when that was an apparent Soviet requirement- it fit within certain thinking in the Soviet era. No longer the Soviet era, it's either a form inertia, or they genuinely have found the three man crew to a better solution.

Well with the auto loader you get:

Commander

Gunner

Driver

So I'm not sure three is a "Soviet requirement" but simple maths

Personally I'm hoping they stuck with three, cutting it to two (as per the source I quoted) is where it gets really interesting.

Either:

Commander/Gunner

Driver

or

Commander

Gunner/Driver

And getting back to Tacbat's post, a Platoon of three tanks, each with a crew of two gives you six people (well five if the PL Commander is exempt) to do a split shift picket for say 8 hours (say 2100-0500) every night.

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Not to mention the basic vehicle maintenance / security.

For me the concept is interesting but honnestly even with 3 guys the situational awarenes of a crew enclosed on a "submarine type" vehicle with only external information through sensors and cameras would be quite limited.

And if they are evn two instead 3, even worse, IMHO

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I do not agree with you.

Looking at today's rabid technology with automatic gears and all that what makes joystick driving possible I could see that commander could be responsible of tanks movements in future.

So..

Commander (who drives as well)

and Gunner. That's how I think it would go.

Looking at the history.. Taking care of gun and shooting targets is not good thing for commander. All kind of small task, and focus drifting away from situation awareness into tunnel vision is bad mistake.

Driving then again, fits for commander, since it supports situational awareness. And today vehicle development has already made it possible, unlike before.

Thought... Gunner driving as well. That is interesting. I haven't thought of that. It would have it's benefits too, and I could see it possible. Just... that darn fact of tunnel vision.. if tank has to move while firing... and that just leads to disasters.

I guess that it would go to point where both are able to drive but it is commander who chooses who will drive tank. That is how it would see it happen.

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I do not agree with you.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

My opinion based on 30+ years experience in AFVs (Tanks and recce) and having done track work at three in the morning, reloaded ammunition, dug bogged vehicles out, stood pickets, put up cam nets and done all the other labour intensive tasks (all in various MOPP states), is that you need a minimum of three people per crew to keep the organisation going.

Yes you can get by for a short period but after a week or so fatigue sets in.

You need a crew commander to be a dedicated crew commander, in fact the information burden for that job has increased with the advent of hunter killer type setups (e.g. CITV) where the commander is now even more involved in the target detection/designation process.

Driving does not support situation awareness unless you mean within 50m of the vehicle. A Crew Commander needs to look at their map and be concerned about issues several Km away from their vehicle, a Troop Leader more so, a Squadron Commander even more so.

But as I say each to their own opinion.

Edited by Gibsonm
Typos

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Yeah that's right that you talk there. Maintenance get's really troublesome with only two members grew.

But for gunner driving... eee.... I don't think that its good idea. Just like as you don't think that its good idea for commander to drive as there is lot map looking and so on.

Also what I have heard from one who actually is driver, and from my own experience of heavy machines. Some terrains take so much attention to driving that its is completely away from most vital roles of tank, such as commanding and gunner.

terrain on real life is not like in steelbeast. Even when trees are not tank killers as badly one still doesn't want to hit them or something else like boulders, nor to sink into soft grounds.

On sim and games it is more likely possible for either one being as driver, on real life, it gets more troublesome and benefits of not having driver start collapsing to lack of third pair of eyes.

- - -

Those can's under turret are that active self protection? Will it fire all those at once or just one, and does it mean that second missile / heat on same place could hit?

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According to available data, T-14 crew consist of 3 men; TC seats on the right, driver on the left, gunner- on the center between them, may be with backward offset to save space(V-pattern) and do not have own hatch.

T-15, as all russian IFVs, have 2-men crew consisting of gunner and driver; platoon/squad leader acts as VC when mounted.

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terrain on real life is not like in steelbeast. Even when trees are not tank killers as badly one still doesn't want to hit them or something else like boulders, nor to sink into soft grounds.

Yes I know having been a driver myself and then being inflicted with newly qualified drivers.

The other thing I just thought of (thanks for the prompt) would be controlling barrel strikes.

with a conventional turret layout the Crew Commander tends to be high and towards the back of the turret and can therefore see where the barrel at on one side and the overhang on the other is relative to trees, etc.

In Steel Beasts this issue is abstracted with barrels happily going through trees, when i can assure you they don't. Stripping a traverse gearbox because a Commander didn't correct a Gunner in time is not fun.

With this layout the turret and barrel is behind the crew compartment so the risk is increased (unless there are enough cameras on the turret roof to give the commander a 6400 mil view).

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According to available data, T-14 crew consist of 3 men; TC seats on the right, driver on the left, gunner- on the center between them, may be with backward offset to save space(V-pattern) and do not have own hatch.

T-15, as all russian IFVs, have 2-men crew consisting of gunner and driver; platoon/squad leader acts as VC when mounted.

Ah hopefully that's the source of the confusion in the article between two and three man crews.

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