Bye-bye G36

[Marko]

I take your points, although I never said it was the MOST expensive.

Let's face it, it's been downhill all the way since the underlever Springfield and the Lee and Enfield MkIV.

+1

There was an article in the observer years ago stating the SA-80 ended up the worlds most

Expensive assault rifle.

If I remember correctly they even ended up issuing M-16 rifles to the royal marines deployed to Afghanistan.

[Hedgehog]

THe Steyr entry for the ACR competition in the mid 90s seemed pretty groovy, or failing that, an AKM clone in NATO calibres. (Or even adopt 7.62x39mm as a new standard.)

[Grenny]

7.62x39 sux,

I want a man's caliber: 7.62x51 :-)

[MAJ_Fubar]

7.62x39 sux,

I want a man's caliber: 7.62x51 :-)

No, no, a man's caliber is .30-06; 7.62x51 is but a compromise. :clin:

[Lt DeFault]

Pffft...

...or, I guess more properly: "Brrrt..." :men_ani:

[Grenny]

Pffft...

...or, I guess more properly: "Brrrt..." :men_ani:

If you are able to fire that from the shoulder...hats off :-D

[Lt DeFault]

Me:

:clin:

[Grenny]

Bah...shooting from the hip doesn't count :-P

[mpow66m]

THe Steyr entry for the ACR competition in the mid 90s seemed pretty groovy, or failing that, an AKM clone in NATO calibres. (Or even adopt 7.62x39mm as a new standard.)

x39 is ok,but when they finally get rid of 5.56 i hope its either 6.5mm or 6.8mm.thinking of a caliber kit in 6.5mm.

[MAJ_Fubar]

x39 is ok,but when they finally get rid of 5.56 i hope its either 6.5mm or 6.8mm.thinking of a caliber kit in 6.5mm.

Yeah, something medium in the 6.4 to 6.8 range is just the ticket...wait, wasn't everyone headed in that direction before the U.S. foisted the 7.62x51 on NATO? Ah well, back to the future...

[Hedgehog]

Me:

:clin:

That's 20mm not 30mm.

And like Grenny says, from the hip doesn't count.

Yeah, something medium in the 6.4 to 6.8 range is just the ticket...wait, wasn't everyone headed in that direction before the U.S. foisted the 7.62x51 on NATO? Ah well, back to the future...

Yup primarily because our new EM-2 was, dare I even whisper it? Better!

And Mr. W. Churchill disagreed and cancelled it. Wanker.

x39 is ok,but when they finally get rid of 5.56 i hope its either 6.5mm or 6.8mm.thinking of a caliber kit in 6.5mm.

See above RE 7x46mm (.280 British)

Or you have .300 Blackout (7.92x33mm)

[mpow66m]

See above RE 7x46mm (.280 British)

Or you have .300 Blackout (7.92x33mm)

I dont have .300 BO and i dont really find it all that interesting,but that may all change when I get to a free state in a yr or two.:gun:

[outontheop]

That's 20mm not 30mm.

And like Grenny says, from the hip doesn't count.

Yup primarily because our new EM-2 was, dare I even whisper it? Better!

And Mr. W. Churchill disagreed and cancelled it. Wanker.

See above RE 7x46mm (.280 British)

Or you have .300 Blackout (7.92x33mm)

Ugh. Your blind nationalism is showing.

The M1 garand was originally developed to be a .276 caliber rifle, decades before the EM2. It was not adopted in that caliber for two reasons: 1) there were still large stocks of .30-06 in the system and re-tooling the infrastructure for a new cartridge would have been expensive, and 2) the propellant technology of the day was not well-suited to small, high-velocity cartridges. It was not until the '60s and '70s that better powder permitted truly effective small-caliber, small cartridge loads for combat use. Reference the Mexican experience with the Mondragon, which didn't really win high marks for reliability (and that wasn't even a particularly small caliber... I seem to recall it was originally trialed in a 6 or 6.5mm, and they just couldn't get it to work at all). Also, like it or not, the British generals didn't seem any more excited about adopting a smaller caliber than the American generals did.

It's not as if the British, or anyone else, had tried anything that hadn't been explored elsewhere. Keep in mind that the Japanese started WW2 using a 6.5mm bullet, and feedback from those that had been shot at (and, indeed, STRUCK by) the cartridge indicated they thought (rightly or wrongly) that the caliber was more likely to be annoying, than lethal. There was a lot of resistance out there to lighter calibers (and there still is, despite not statistical proof that the larger ones are qualitatively better)

Also, if you do the math (I have!), you will find that given the choice of a 6.5 or 6.8 cartridge (assuming one of roughly the same action length as current assault rifles), you're actually better off staying with the 5.56x45mm, and fielding it with a high-ballistic-coefficient bullet in the 77-80 grain weight range. Those long, thin bullets shoot faster and flatter than the 6.5 and 6.8mm rounds, have somewhere around 90% the kinetic energy, and the all-up ammunition weight is something like 70% as much as the larger ones. Recoil is significantly lesser, reduced on the order of 20%. The long bullets break apart at relatively low velocities due to the long lever arm acting on the projectile when it tumbles, ensuring good terminal effects. Due to the high mass and high projectile sectional density (length:width ratio), they are better at defeating body armor (in a similar way that APFSDS is superior in penetration to full-caliber APCBC). Currently fielded rifles with 1:7 to 1:8 twist (all M4 and M16A2 and later; almost certainly all other NATO rifles as well) are capable of firing them without modification.

Also, 7.92x33mm has absolutely NOTHING to do with .300 Blackout. 7.92 kurz was an intermediate caliber for assault rifles, firing a lightweight bullet (123 grains) as fast as it could (2300 fps), and is very similar dimensionally and performance-wise to 7.62x39mm (AK47).

The .300 Blackout is designed specifically to fire the HEAVIEST bullet possible (220 grains) sub-sonically (1000 fps) in order to have a nearly completely silent cartridge for use in a standard assault rifle platform.

[Skybird03]

According to this GERMAN news article from today:

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article140730286/Beamter-soll-schon-2006-vor-G36-Maengeln-gewarnt-haben.html

, a high ranking official in the German defence ministry had warned already 2006 that inappropriate material was used to manufacture the G36. He then worked in a department analysing ammunition and equipment. His superiors then ignored him and told him that it was hilarious what he claimed, he then was started to be shuttled around within the ministry, to various jobs and positions. In the end they tried twice, in 2008 and 2010, to get him officially declared insane by trying to enforce a psychiatric examination, against which he successfully intervened at the court in Koblenz in both cases.