The perfect controller for SB!

[Ssnake]

The reality is however that what passed as a (military) "simulation" back in the 1990s would nowadays be considered a game or a "sim lite" at best. It would get blasted by the critics that are from the "in-crowd" and probably not be super-attractive to "outside people" (who play Call of Duty) - unless it was souped up visually (at which point the question becomes if it's still a simulation).

Second, wars are no longer as apocalyptic or clear-cut "good vs evil" then when it was about "freedom or communism" with a somewhat symmetrical threat. On the one hand you have more vicious enemies that prefer engaging civilians in the worst ways imaginable, on the other you have this mix of civilians, disguised terrorists, and openly acting fighters, plus all these unsavory restrictions from your combat lawyers (Rules of Engagement).

Even in Steel Beasts most people prefer playing Cold War type scenarios. You have your faceless, godless commie horde and you blast away. Lots of action, everybody is happy. Who actually bothers trying to create the scenarios where you have the mix of small-scale infantry centric engagements mixed with civilians who may or may not pull out a gun at any minute, etc.?

(Current limitations of what SB can or cannot do put aside for a moment.)

This modern type of war isn't much fun. Granted, the old style wouldn't exactly have been "fun" either, but at least there's a clear "Us vs Them" situation where modern war is a big, confusing mess.

You already get "big, confusing mess" delivered by your trusted TV anchorman every evening. Only gluttons for punishment ask for more during the precious few hours between dinner and bedtime.

[Werewolf]

Who actually bothers trying to create the scenarios where you have the mix of small-scale infantry centric engagements mixed with civilians who may or may not pull out a gun at any minute

Well - I kind'a tried it with my Montana scenarios with vs 2.654. Tried is the operative word here. The 1st one was a small town National Guard unit taking on a US Army unit with morale built into the AI to simulate NG units probably not being able to go toe to toe with a regular US Army unit. It included civilian transport units to get the locals out of town before the US Army could take it over. Partisan root out and destroy in the 2nd one. Neither was very successful if one judges success by the number of downloads. (Which quite honestly surprised me considering the rep my SB1 scenarios had - but then they were all conventional warfare based - long gone now).

I do agree that the nature of war as currently fought has changed considerably since the 80's/90's. And that is most assuredly a factor in how gamers make buying choices.

Still - I stand by my assertion that the nature of the game playing public has changed for the reasons I delineated and that that is the major factor influencing the decline of the availability of military simulations being developed and released. Can anyone name a real milsim released in the last 5 years?

I'd like to throw the DCS stuff out as a real milsim except all it really simulates is the aircraft. The DCS Combined arms module almost makes it but not quite. Rise of Flight - maybe - but historical sim might describe it better. Arma - no freaking way - it's just another shooter. Call of Duty and Battlefield - shooters plain and simple (kind'a fun but still just shooters - in fact IMO anyone playing those that goes on to join their national Army and tries to fight like they play will die very, very quickly). Combat Mission series - I've got 'em all - honestly - I don't think its a sim. What have I left out?

[Ssnake]

Well - I kind'a tried it with my Montana scenarios with vs 2.654. Tried is the operative word here.

Naturally so. Version 2.6 simply wasn't up to the task. Even version 3.0 isn't quite there yet. At least the next major release will bring a number of infantry related improvements that may increase your chances substantially.

3.0 brought the option to have civilians in the streets, and to arm and disarm them to mimic irregular fighter presence. Also, with multiple parties in a single scenario another tactical dimension has been added.

Can anyone name a real milsim released in the last 5 years?

There were various new releases of Combat Mission Shock Force - maybe more of a tactical wargame than necessarily a study simulation of military equipment if that's what you mean by "simulation". Arguably even World of Tanks has strong simulation elements even though they largely piss it away by the way how their levels are designed, the way how their user interface simplifies the procedural aspects, and the requirements of their business model.

DCS World may be a "low fidelity" simulation in the land part, but I'd still count it as a "simulation" which apparently works best if players fill the role of pilot and forward air controller.

Then there was that air defense missile simulator - extremely esoteric, but hey, you just asked for a single example and I already found four or five. Outerra based "Titan" is another project that's close to release, although it's clearly intended as a VBS competitor and may not see a release as a game/commercial milsim.

That's not to say that your observation about the relative scarcity of milsims was fundamentally flawed; everything that's successful is a first person shooter, and the rest are freaks of nature like Steel Beasts or other military themed simulation games. I just don't entirely subscribe to your opinion about the reasons, particularly that we're dealing with poorly educated, pot-smoking hippie dropouts as the almost exclusive demographic of computer game players.

[Grenny]

.... I just don't entirely subscribe to your opinion about the reasons, particularly that we're dealing with poorly educated, pot-smoking hippie dropouts as the almost exclusive demographic of computer game players.

He, sometimes I like to think that: I'm much more clever as I do this and others are not...but that just to make me feel better :-P

[Lt DeFault]

Who actually bothers trying to create the scenarios where you have the mix of small-scale infantry centric engagements mixed with civilians who may or may not pull out a gun at any minute, etc.?

Version 2.6 simply wasn't up to the task. Even version 3.0 isn't quite there yet. At least the next major release will bring a number of infantry related improvements that may increase your chances substantially.

3.0 brought the option to have civilians in the streets, and to arm and disarm them to mimic irregular fighter presence. Also, with multiple parties in a single scenario another tactical dimension has been added.

I also tried to do this with my "Burning Sands" mission. And I thought it worked out rather well. In the early stages there's a "civilian" walking down the road who begins to approach a friendly LMV. If you shoot him before he does anything provocative, you get reprimanded and the mission ends. If he does do something, you've got about a second to react before he ruins your CO's day.

I really need to find the time to go back and put the finishing touches on that mission. It's been a "beta" for over two years now. :redface:

[Gibsonm]

For those interested in a demo of the Farming Controller (not used with SB though):

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A bit closer to home - for those who want to do everything on a tank:

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Unsure if he will do a Steel Beasts version.

[Toxzic]

i just got these:

 

[Gibsonm]

5 hours ago, Toxzic said:

i just got these:

 

 

I know you are proud of them, but that's what 5 or 6 identical posts now?

[Mirzayev]

When you go digging deep into the archives.