Wittmann's headstone stolen

[Guest]

Having stood there, and paid my respects, I find this truly disgusting.

http://www.argunners.com/headstone-from-michael-wittmanns-grave-stolen/

[Captain_Colossus]

Oh well. Why do you respect him? Let's remember what is disgusting and retain some perspective.

Michael Wittmann participated in the Nazi cause- no matter what someone says about soldiers following orders, his actions as an ideological Nazi party member contributed to the unprovoked invasion of foreign countries and millions of deaths on both sides. I would never romanticize a figure like this. He would have killed me without hesitation if I had got in the way of that insanity, and I certainly don't care about his grave. They've already taken away the most important thing he'd ever had- his own life, what's a grave in the scheme of things, anyway? Consider it a (very) small payment of restitution for the invasion and occupation of other countries. That's not the worst thing that will have come out of WW2.

I think it's not speaking much as to someone's sense of taste to steal tombstones as decorative art, though. Just a weird thing to do.

[Guest]

The man was a soldier doing a job. Or are you of the mindset that thinks everyone who was old enough to remember the 40's in Germany was a Nazi? You don't desecrate a man's grave. End of.

I was holding on to the slim chance that the community might have held onto some semblance of common sense, but evidently not.

[Captain_Colossus]

I repeat- not just a soldier doing his job, although I figured that was going to come up anyway.

You do know that he was not just a normal conscript, right? You do know what is ideologically required to join the Waffen-SS and the anathema declared on them at Nuremberg means, right?

You've selected a Nazi party member as someone you respect- only he died in battle as opposed to some higher up bureaucrat they hung on the gallows. Remember that these people cost the Germans plenty as well.

I could give you the benefit of the doubt- maybe you just don't really know what you're talking about. But you seem upset, and I'm saying it's no loss to humanity.

[Marko]

I repeat- not just a soldier doing his job, although I figured that was going to come up anyway.

You do know that he was not just a normal conscript, right? You do know what is ideologically required to join the Waffen-SS and the anathema declared on them at Nuremberg means, right?

You've selected a Nazi party member as someone you respect- only he died in battle as opposed to some higher up bureaucrat they hung on the gallows. Remember that these people cost the Germans plenty as well.

+1

Whittman was a devoted Nazi.

He was also a very competent/skilful tank commander and natural leader

His achievements on the battlefield were impressive but he was no hero

The SS were a evil Bunch of fanatics who brought ruin and misery everywhere they fought.

[ashdivay]

I repeat- not just a soldier doing his job, although I figured that was going to come up anyway.

You do know that he was not just a normal conscript, right? You do know what is ideologically required to join the Waffen-SS and the anathema declared on them at Nuremberg means, right?

You've selected a Nazi party member as someone you respect- only he died in battle as opposed to some higher up bureaucrat they hung on the gallows. Remember that these people cost the Germans plenty as well.

I could give you the benefit of the doubt- maybe you just don't really know what you're talking about. But you seem upset, and I'm saying it's no loss to humanity.

+1

Whittman was a devoted Nazi.

He was also a very competent/skilful tank commander and natural leader

His achievements on the battlefield were impressive but he was no hero

The SS were a evil Bunch of fanatics who brought ruin and misery everywhere they fought.

Ww 2 is over. Move on.

Being Indian and of brown skin , should I by default hate a nazis? yes. I hate the ideology the fact they killed millions. I hate the stupid ideology that caused it.

The thought that I can be killed just because of my skin color because of ideology scares me.

But as a kid I read about accomplishments of this man and I couldn't help but admire him.

Now I don't know if he was a hardcore Nazi or not. But I do know that he was a pretty good tank ace.

I will forever prost a glass of beer in his memory and his accomplishments as a tank ace.

I just hope his grave stone was stolen by someone who had the same respect for him rather than someone who hates him for no reason.

[Marko]

Ww 2 is over. Move on.

Being Indian and of brown skin , should I by default hate a nazis? yes. I hate the ideology the fact they killed millions. I hate the stupid ideology that caused it.

The thought that I can be killed just because of my skin color because of ideology scares me.

But as a kid I read about accomplishments of this man and I couldn't help but admire him.

Now I don't know if he was a hardcore Nazi or not. But I do know that he was a pretty good tank ace.

I will forever prost a glass of beer in his memory and his accomplishments as a tank ace.

I just hope his grave stone was stolen by someone who had the same respect for him rather than someone who hates him for no reason.

Yes he was a hard-core Nazi I have read and watched documentary's about him

There's a pretty good documentary about who actually took his tank out

It was a Canadian crewed firefly.

What ever achievements the SS had on the battlefield there treatment of civilians and POW

Negate them of any praise. Many German units fought just as hard but did not commit Atrocities. units like the Fallschirmjäger fought with honour

[ashdivay]

Yes he was a hard-core Nazi I have read and watched documentary's about him

There's a pretty good documentary about who actually took his tank out

It was a Canadian crewed firefly.

What ever achievements the SS had on the battlefield there treatment of civilians and POW

Negate them of any praise. Many German units fought just as hard but did not commit Atrocities. units like the Fallschirmjäger fought with honour

Based on that logic, British and the rest of the European countries commitedgreat atrocities in their colonies.

It negates any good they did.

Anyway you're entitled to your opinions.

[Tacbat]

This thread was brought to you by:

[Captain_Colossus]

Ww 2 is over. Move on.

And Michael Wittman isn't fresh. People shouldn't worry about what happens to his grave, because I promise you he doesn't care- unless of course they admire him going beyond a factual note to history.

Now I don't know if he was a hardcore Nazi or not. But I do know that he was a pretty good tank ace.

Nazism at its core is not a misunderstood system of belief, there's no going in and joining the Nazi party sort of buffet style. It's not a joke. It's a conscious, deliberate, aggressive doctrine, to put it mildly- one they'd even turned against their own people, they would massacre anyone they declared an enemy. Keep in mind that the outstanding success that Waffen-SS units could achieve and that people might admire happens because of the fact that they were so ideologically committed. You could throw those guys in when the odds were overwhelming. It's not so simple to separate it out like that.

If committed Nazis didn't know this, what did they think would happen based on the things that were being said openly by the Nazi party what they believed and intended to do? They cannot claim ignorance. To go further and voluntarily join the Waffen-SS is not something done so easily. You have to have the right stuff and the right credentials. You have to believe in what you're doing. And there are people you'll find for whatever reason openly and not so openly kind of say things like, "Yeah, but at least the Nazis made the trains run on time." This should be pretty obvious what this is.

Germany lost the War and paid big time. So they desecrated the grave of a noted tank ace that some people admired who was a Nazi. This is not something to really worry about after everything which had been done in World War 2.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Captain_Colossus

[Tjay]

This thread raises the interesting question of whether it it can be justified to differentiate between such a person's performance and prowess as a soldier, and their personal political beliefs.

Fairly easy for those for whom Nazism is just an historical, political episode. Much less so for those closer to the issue, perhaps simply because of nationality. After all, the most vociferous critics of the Nazis were the Germans of the immediate post-war period.

The case of how the British behaved in the colonial era is a case in point. As a Brit it is easy for me to focus on the good and skim over the bad bits - of which there are many. But an African or Indian whose ancestors were on the receiving end of maltreatment will almost certainly have a diffenent perspective. IMHO as ever, of course.

[Eisenschwein]

Nice start of a endless Discussion here.

It´s to easy to belief what BBC an History Channel said.

But if you don´t want to research, belief it:

- Wittmann was a Tank ace (No, not even a good Tank Commander)

- All NSDAP Members are hardcore Nazi´s (No)

- All Germans know about the Holocaust (No)

- All Soldiers know about Holocaust (No)

- 007 were killed by a Firefly (No)

- All Waffen SS Soldiers worked in a KZ (No)

But now let´s start the Discussion......

Btw I´m not a Nazi, but all of my Family must be one, I´m just interested in (the correct) History.

[Tjay]

Btw I´m not a Nazi, but all of my Family must be one, I´m just interested in (the correct) History.

I would suggest that establishing the 'correct' facts about events even as recent at this is impossible because there will be contradictory accounts - particularly when it comes to an individuals opinions or political stance. Attempting to do so inevitably turns what starts out as a discussion/debate into an argument. And once that happens, no one ever changes their opinion, regardless of what the other person says, do they? If, indeed they are listening to it. Often the outcome is just animosity between people who were rubbing along OK beforehand.

So perhaps the best thing is for the moderators to shout 'Political!' and lock it down?

[Eisenschwein]

You´re right, no political Discussions here.

[Marko]

You´re right, no political Discussions here.

Agreed lets leave it alone.

No one will ever know for sure who took wittmann out

But I did find this documentary interesting.

I agree with your comments about history and discover channels but if it were not for those channels. we would be stuck with soaps and reality TV shows I do tend to take what they say with a pinch of salt. The funny thing is they hire historians and lectures for commentary, Very eminent ones in there field.

[ashdivay]

Agreed lets leave it alone.

No one will ever know for sure who took wittmann out

But I did find this documentary interesting.

I agree with your comments about history and discover channels but if it were not for those channels. we would be stuck with soaps and reality TV shows I do tend to take what they say with a pinch of salt. The funny thing is they hire historians and lectures for commentary, Very eminent ones in there field.

Yes because we need to learn all about ancient aliens

[Marko]

Yes because we need to learn all about ancient aliens

Yes they do show a lot of crap as well, but they also have shows like engineering marvels.

Battlefield ,I even liked the tanks series wings of the red star, dogfights they do Sensationalise some aspects of there shows but that is to appeal to the younger viewers.

It beats the hell out of a hour long show about Kim kardashians hair malfunction.

My point is there are not that many documentary's being shown on the terrestrial channels on my side of the world anyway. Plus the group that owns discovery and history channels

Have given a undertaking to improve the quality and content of there shows there going Back to the high quality shows they produced when they started.

[Captain_Colossus]

There's a kind of red herring that often gets introduced into these discussions of the kind like "it's a myth that all Germans were concentration camp guards" or something like that.

That's not at all what this is about. I'm sorry, but Germany was an aggressor in World War2, and the stated goals by the leadership are plain for everyone to see. Germany was not a victim.

Some people may have gotten caught up in it and then regretted it later, some claim that they didn't really know what was going on, others say they were just following orders or they had no choice but their leadership said that the Germans were a master race and that everyone else was going to suck on it. They did not state it even in subtle terms who the internal enemies of Germany were. They said this openly. Don't kid yourselves. To be a member of the Nazi party is a commitment to this ideology, this the type of person who believes in it, or is pragmatic enough to know there's a more beneficial future or career in it. Either way the responsibility has to begin with someone. It's almost like none of it happened, because everyone says it wasn't their fault. Let's just say for a moment that not all Germans knew about the holocaust or knew what was going on. Everyone knows it now- so why is this a problem to deny?

It's one thing to study history or to play computer simulations, it's another to kind of elicit a kind of sympathetic tone for someone like this because his headstone was stolen. That is a bit strange, except that it probably comes from a kind of sympathetic position, one that's a bit revisionist.

You'll notice that there tends to be a lot less admiration and hero worship for the Italian fascists or the Japanese. There's a kind of 'coolness' for the Germans that a lot of people still seem to pick up on. There's something about the personality cult or the uniforms or the ideology or the organization or the symbolism or the equipment that still look cool that really doesn't happen for the other parties in the War. It's definitely noticeable.

[Eisenschwein]

So let´s stay at the 007 File from History Channel.

If possible,can anybody tell me why 007 lost both Tracks due to Firefly AP Fire ?

[Eisenschwein]

What part of "No more political Discussion" you don´t understand ?

There's a kind of red herring that often gets introduced into these discussions of the kind like "it's a myth that all Germans were concentration camp guards" or something like that.

That's not at all what this is about. I'm sorry, but Germany was an aggressor in World War2, and the stated goals by the leadership are plain for everyone to see. Germany was not a victim.

Some people may have gotten caught up in it and then regretted it later, some claim that they didn't really know what was going on, others say they were just following orders or they had no choice but their leadership said that the Germans were a master race and that everyone else was going to suck on it. They did not state it even in subtle terms who the internal enemies of Germany were. They said this openly. Don't kid yourselves. To be a member of the Nazi party is a commitment to this ideology, this the type of person who believes in it, or is pragmatic enough to know there's a more beneficial future or career in it. Either way the responsibility has to begin with someone. It's almost like none of it happened, because everyone says it wasn't their fault. Let's just say for a moment that not all Germans knew about the holocaust or knew what was going on. Everyone knows it now- so why is this a problem to deny?

It's one thing to study history or to play computer simulations, it's another to kind of elicit a kind of sympathetic tone for someone like this because his headstone was stolen. That is a bit strange, except that it probably comes from a kind of sympathetic position, one that's a bit revisionist.

You'll notice that there tends to be a lot less admiration and hero worship for the Italian fascists or the Japanese. There's a kind of 'coolness' for the Germans that a lot of people still seem to pick up on. There's something about the personality cult or the uniforms or the ideology or the organization or the symbolism or the equipment that still look cool that really doesn't happen for the other parties in the War. It's definitely noticeable.

Or is it just the deep hate against all from Germany ? If so take a look what your Country did the last 60 Years.

[ashdivay]

There's a kind of red herring that often gets introduced into these discussions of the kind like "it's a myth that all Germans were concentration camp guards" or something like that.

That's not at all what this is about. I'm sorry, but Germany was an aggressor in World War2, and the stated goals by the leadership are plain for everyone to see. Germany was not a victim.

Some people may have gotten caught up in it and then regretted it later, some claim that they didn't really know what was going on, others say they were just following orders or they had no choice but their leadership said that the Germans were a master race and that everyone else was going to suck on it. They did not state it even in subtle terms who the internal enemies of Germany were. They said this openly. Don't kid yourselves. To be a member of the Nazi party is a commitment to this ideology, this the type of person who believes in it, or is pragmatic enough to know there's a more beneficial future or career in it. Either way the responsibility has to begin with someone. It's almost like none of it happened, because everyone says it wasn't their fault. Let's just say for a moment that not all Germans knew about the holocaust or knew what was going on. Everyone knows it now- so why is this a problem to deny?

It's one thing to study history or to play computer simulations, it's another to kind of elicit a kind of sympathetic tone for someone like this because his headstone was stolen. That is a bit strange, except that it probably comes from a kind of sympathetic position, one that's a bit revisionist.

You'll notice that there tends to be a lot less admiration and hero worship for the Italian fascists or the Japanese. There's a kind of 'coolness' for the Germans that a lot of people still seem to pick up on. There's something about the personality cult or the uniforms or the ideology or the organization or the symbolism or the equipment that still look cool that really doesn't happen for the other parties in the War. It's definitely noticeable.

Same can be said about colonial powers that ravaged Asia and Africa.

But i don't hate British or french or Portuguese , all of them were forced to leave India.

The point is , if i as a person of dark skin who was not around to be directly affected by the actions of people who are not around anymore , then i seriously dont give a hoot and I will choose to move on.

Similarly people such as your self can stop your hate campaign and move on. WW2 is over.

Oh and i do admire British Generals Such as Sir Robert Colquhoun who formed the 3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha Rifles same unit my father was commissioned into in 1965.

I take pride in knowing i have connection to such a unit.

Right wing nationalist in India would argue i am a traitor but they like you sir need to move on.

With regards

[Captain_Colossus]

Don't worry about what I do. I'll say what I think.

But the revisionism isn't going to work. Talk about tactics and history, that's one thing. But it's always a matter of time when you see what starts to come out. It may not be so overt at first, but watch how it changes. Watch how people start actually complicating Nazis. Again, this doesn't happen with the Italians or the Japanese. Watch how it actually attempts to make it hatred for Germany. You may as well come out of the closet.

I'll be the first to criticize anything the United States has done. So that does not alleviate the guilt of what the Nazis did. I don't know why you would think that does do that.

[Eisenschwein]

What I can read, you started the Nazi and political Discus of this ?!

Without any deeper knowledge, as far as I can understand your writings.

So what about the Facts of Wittmann´s death?

[Captain_Colossus]

Just so you may have missed something in all of this, or you are trying to change the subject, I will restate it:

Original message: Michael Wittman's headstone. Stolen. Boo-hoo-hoo. Disgusting. What outrage.

Well, and? Wittman was a member of the Nazi party. You want me to sympathize with someone like that? Simple predicate analysis, maybe this is where it's getting lost.

Wittman was a member of the Nazi party. He's officially Nazi. He doesn't even get to protest that he was just along for the ride or just doing his duty. What gets predicated to the Nazis- in other words, what do Nazis think and feel? What do Nazis believe, what do Nazis say, what do Nazis do? Surely this is very rudimentary. Surely you'd recognize this if we were talking about jihadists today.

You can go further- not only was he a member of the Nazi party, remember, this is certification now of the beliefs he had- he was in the Waffen-SS and not conscripted. How did the Waffen-SS get the reputation that they did? Did they get that by being nicer than the average German unit? No, that's not it, but you'd have to be misdirected by the History Channel to be indoctrinated to know that. Remember that Waffen-SS units are more than just average military units. There is a purpose that they were intended to serve that goes beyond normal military duties.

And about tactics? No, that's not the intent of this thread, the intent was to elicit sympathy for Wittman. Because there are people who say they admire him, and you can see it happen here, because he was officially Nazi, not just an implication like calling all Germans Nazis, but because this guy was a member of the Nazi party, this is why I'm saying it's not very proportional feel sorry for him. Or at least it shouldn't be.

There is every attempt to change the subject from that, and that's what I'm explaining.

[Tjay]

Well guys, we are now deep into argument territory. Nothing anybody says is going to change the mind of anyone else on this subject - as opinions were set in stone a long time ago obviously.

So we have to chose between continuing with an increasingly acrimonious argument that no one can win - and letting it go. The third option is for the apparently somnambulent moderators to step in and shut the thread down because it contravenes the 'no politics' rule. Can you guess what I would recommend? :clin: