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Rotareneg

AI gunnery issue?

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In the attached scenario, AAR, and report, two 2A5s fire 163 shots but only manage 22 hits against an easy target. The shots often hit the ground directly in front of the firing tank. Also, the AI often fires immediately when the gun returns to the firing position even when the tank had backed up to a turret down position and no longer has line-of-sight. My user record has a 100 gunnery rating.

AAR_zip.f341769096eb33ee3ab60bf2b848c0b0

AAR.zip

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Theory:

This only happens on the Leopard 2A5 (all types), Strv 122, Leopard 2E, but NOT on the Leopard 2A4.

Would you mind testing my theory by trying it on the Leopard 2A4? If not, then I can try it myself, I just figured that you would know instantly whether it is a big difference or not given that you observed the 2A5 firing so many times. :)

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The 2A4 did it too, although perhaps not quite as badly, but there might be a bit of randomness to it.

I made a different test scenario (attached) that causes the 2A4 AI gunner to malfunction badly while the 2A5 works almost perfectly.

After backing up to reload, the 2A4 will often fire the moment the gun has returned to the firing position even when the stationary target is completely out of line-of-sight. If the shot ricochets off the ground the AI will then attempt to adjust the point of aim based on that, causing follow-up shots to miss even if the target is in plain sight.

The 2A5 on the other hand will fire, back down to reload, pull back up, find the target and then, only after moving forward enough to not hit the terrain, fire.

Leopard_gunnery_zip.5c38f472c1d916fffee1

Leopard_gunnery.zip

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Ah, sorry, no, I didn't mean to suggest that it would not happen on the 2A4 (yes, there is randomness to it and the AI being AI will still do it regardless from time to time, just like a human might - the difference though is that the human is smart enough to know when to stop doing it). What I meant was that the theory is that the 2A4 would be more like the M1 in frequency.

So, in other words, not that it wouldn't fire any rounds into the ground (this cannot be avoided in every case), but that it wouldn't fire anything close to 163 shots into the berm and only 20 hits on target.

Based on that clarification, would you say the theory is correct? (I am unable to look at the scenarios at the moment :sad2:).

Edited by Volcano
clarification

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On that same scenario with 2A4s in place of the 2A5s they managed 35 hits out of 186 shots.

Attached is a more clear collection of test scenarios for later use, with separate stationary and moving target tests for the 2A4, 2A5, and SEP.

test_scenarios_zip.fb132df2fd8298e23dbc2

test_scenarios.zip

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i seem to remember a similar issue years ago on the leopard 2A5.

from what i remember, it was caused by the AI using the auxillary sight to determine whether the gun was clearing the berm or not.

since the 2A5 GAS is above the gun instead of below it, that caused the 2A5 to shoot into the berm instead of over it.

that it's happending to the 2A4 as well, suggest the issue is more complex than that.

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On that same scenario with 2A4s in place of the 2A5s they managed 35 hits out of 186 shots.

Attached is a more clear collection of test scenarios for later use, with separate stationary and moving target tests for the 2A4, 2A5, and SEP.

Ah bummer, there goes my theory.

But to be sure, you are saying that the 2A4 does not behave as well as the M1 in what you saw, correct?

(I am putting together another theory here) 8-)

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If you jump into the commanders position in the M1 and manually position the tank you can get the gunner to hit the ground, which can trigger the bug where the AI tries to correct for ricochets and goes crazy:

StiiLQfrGxo

In those test scenarios the M1 AI does seem to be able to avoid doing so when left to it's own devices, unlike the Leopards. I also tried the T72 and it does the same thing as the Leos, it'll eventually hit the ground on it's own and then go bonkers trying to adjust for the shot that bounced.

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Correct, the 2A4 is much worse than the M1.

OK, thanks. I think we now have enough info to know what might be causing the problem. Time to investigate...

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Really... what is actually happening there on the video.

It hit first at the berm, then way behind of target to where it had been long time ago. And after that... way front of target? Why?

And I'm really interested... could cv9030 aiming problems have something common with this? Like.. something in environment causing aiming to go crazy?

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Really... what is actually happening there on the video.

It hit first at the berm, then way behind of target to where it had been long time ago. And after that... way front of target? Why?

And I'm really interested... could cv9030 aiming problems have something common with this? Like.. something in environment causing aiming to go crazy?

Well, the AI has been this way since 1999, so I wouldn't get too worked up about it. But beyond that, we will look into it. The way the AI figures out of it is has a clear LOS to fire is based on the location of several different blank frames on the models. It doesn't have anything to do with the presence of a certain object in the environment itself.

I think everyone has seen the AI shoot the berm, but with the description above, at least we know which vehicles do it less, and which do it more so perhaps we can single out the cause and improve their behavior.

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